Trump's War on Children

The Off-Topic forum for anything non-LDS related, such as sports or politics. Rated PG through PG-13.
Post Reply
_honorentheos
_Emeritus
Posts: 11104
Joined: Thu Feb 04, 2010 5:17 am

Re: Trump's War on Children

Post by _honorentheos »

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:Here's a balanced take on the center labelled by some on the Left as "dog kennels" and a "prison":

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/14/us/f ... ntion.html

I'm still waiting on someone who is outraged at this to provide a solution...

- Doc

It probably depends on how one feels about obeying the law regarding maximum duration for holding families and children, and their tolerance for a number of people disappearing rather than voluntarily showing up on a hearing date to face possible deportation or be granted a stay while their asylum case is reviewed. If one views that as just catch and release, then the laws that prevent the State from holding children for lengthy periods will seem impotent and the use of forced separation as a work around less like a bizarrely misguided creation of a loop hole that tears families apart than as the only option that gets and keeps the adults in jail. And I suppose it works to blame the adults for putting their families in the position where big brother US is holding their arm while saying, "Stop hitting yourself!"

If one views the zero tolerance policy of Jeff Sessions to be the better course, then one probably sees the outcome as unfortunate but inevitable. If one views the zero tolerance policy as prioritizing an iced out border to our south over pretty much everything else, then the policy is the obvious problem with an easy solution.
The world is always full of the sound of waves..but who knows the heart of the sea, a hundred feet down? Who knows it's depth?
~ Eiji Yoshikawa
_Doctor CamNC4Me
_Emeritus
Posts: 21663
Joined: Mon Jun 15, 2009 11:02 am

Re: Trump's War on Children

Post by _Doctor CamNC4Me »

Honor,

While I appreciate your input it doesn't really answer the question. Additionally, can anyone on this board tell us exactly how many of these children arrived with their parents?

People like to bitch about child sex rings or human trafficking, but isn't this facility the very thing we need to document illegal immigrant children to ensure they aren't funneled into bad situations? I strongly recommend those outraged to read my linked article, and then explain in detail what you'd do differently and why that's better than what's being done now.

- Dod
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.

Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.
_honorentheos
_Emeritus
Posts: 11104
Joined: Thu Feb 04, 2010 5:17 am

Re: Trump's War on Children

Post by _honorentheos »

Cam,

The issue isn't how to house kids taken from their families. The issue is caused by laws that limit the length of time a minor can be detained as well as laws that require children from Central America to be given a hearing before they can be deported.

Check here:
https://www.americanimmigrationcouncil. ... -responses

Relevant quote -

The original Trafficking Victims Protection Act was signed into law in 2000 to address human trafficking concerns. It was subsequently reauthorized during both the Bush and Obama Administrations in 2003, 2005, 2008, and 2013.

The TVPRA of 2008, signed by President Bush, responded to concerns that unaccompanied children apprehended by the Border Patrol “were not being adequately screened” for eligibility for protection or relief in the United States. The TVPRA also directed the development of procedures to ensure that if unaccompanied children are deported, they are safely repatriated. At the outset, unaccompanied children must be screened as potential victims of human trafficking. However, as described further below, procedural protections for children are different for children from contiguous countries (i.e., Mexico and Canada) and non-contiguous countries (all others). While children from non-contiguous countries are transferred to the Department of Health and Human Services (HHS) for trafficking screening, and placed into formal immigration court removal proceedings, Mexican and Canadian children are screened by CBP for trafficking and, if no signs of trafficking or fear of persecution are reported, may be summarily returned home pursuant to negotiated repatriation agreements. The TVPRA in 2008 also ensured that unaccompanied alien children are exempt from certain limitations on asylum (e.g., a one-year filing deadline). It also required HHS to ensure “to the greatest extent practicable” that unaccompanied children in HHS custody have counsel, as described further below—not only “to represent them in legal proceedings,” but to “protect them from mistreatment, exploitation, and trafficking.”


So what is going on under the Trump administration is the families are now being separated so the kids can be classified as Unaccompanied so that their parents can be detained while awaiting their trials.

It's about the policy of the Trump administration taking a zero tolerance approach to immigrants, Cam. And it's shady as “F” to subvert the law that way.
The world is always full of the sound of waves..but who knows the heart of the sea, a hundred feet down? Who knows it's depth?
~ Eiji Yoshikawa
_Jersey Girl
_Emeritus
Posts: 34407
Joined: Wed Oct 25, 2006 1:16 am

Re: Trump's War on Children

Post by _Jersey Girl »

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:Here's a balanced take on the center labelled by some on the Left as "dog kennels" and a "prison":

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/14/us/f ... ntion.html

I'm still waiting on someone who is outraged at this to provide a solution...

- Doc


I've mentioned the Brownsville converted Walmart in at least two posts on the thread and also the congressman who raised a stink when he was barred entry to it. The problem I have with the way people are responding to this is that when they say they care about the children who are being detained or Hawkeye who says he finds it depressing, is that what they really mean is "I damned hate Trump".

How do I know? Because they haven't put finger to the keyboard to come up with the information that you just did which tells me you are both genuinely interested in the well being of the children and truth.

I'll have the conversation with you that I had hoped to have with Hawkeye.

Let me cut to the chase regarding the shelter in the converted Walmart. You have some of the evidences I was going to use right in the article that you linked to.

The children are being accommodated and their needs met in a building that has been converted to meet their needs, receiving medical care and program that is designed to meet their physical, intellectual, emotional and social needs. It is sponsored and operated by Southwest Key Services and to the best of my knowledge, it is being run under the auspices of the US Department of Health and Human Services and under the direct supervision of the Texas Department of Social Services which is the state licensing agency in Texas.

What that means in real life is that the building has been subject to inspections by DSS, Fire Department, and Health Department. It must operate IAW state rules and regulations.

What that means in real life is that the everyting that takes place inside that building, when it takes place and how it takes place, is regulated by the state including how the children spend their time and who they spend it with. How they are fed, what they are fed, how many hours of recreation they are entitled to (note the word "entitled"), how many periods of rest they require according to their age and stage of development, when they sleep, how they sleep, on what type and size of cot they sleep, how far apart their cots are from each other (health department), how they are supervised during periods of sleep, how they are supervised and grouped during their periods of educational instruction, what type of curriculum is used, who teaches it, how much space and time they have in the out of doors, what type of indoor and outdoor equipment is availble for their use, how they are supervised in the out of doors, that they have 24 access to water indoors and outdoors, and particularly in Texas that they are provided with shades areas in the out of doors.

This program is staffed with people who have had to pass FBI and state background checks, fingerprints included. Staff who has been trained to provide instruction, supervision, to deliver curriculum and meet the children's emotional needs so long as they are in the program.

In other words, it is staffed by people much like me.

My question to whomever opposes such accommodations would be this.

Would you rather have immigrant children housed with related and unrelated adults 24/7 in adult shelters with no additional supervision, while adults work out adult issues, hoping to god that the guy in the next cot isn't a pedophile or would you rather have them accommodated in a LRE supervised and cared for 24/7, where their safety and security is ensured, where the staff provided for the express purpose of meeting the children's needs, who have received training and education to provide such services and whose identity and background has already been verifiied via dual background checks?

I noticed in the article that the program has had 13 write ups for deficiencies, though I didn't see that it specified what those were. What happens in that case in an already licensed program such as this shelter is that the shelter will have something on the order of 60-90-120 days to correct each deficiency in order to continue the license.

Having been through my fair share of walk-in unannounced inspections by the various departments I listed above, I can tell you that violations can be anything from something like your bleach solution being strip tested, rubber bands laying on a counter top, the depth of your playground sand when it's stick tested, how many surfaces are available on the playground, a fence that needs repair, an unlocked closet, immunization records missing from a child file, and all sorts of things. It's not at all unusual for a program to come up with at least a few minor violations as the result of a walk-in inspection. This is business as usual for anyone who knows anything about the operation of children's programs, particularly those that are nonprofit.

Let's say they're using the rear parking lot for an outdoor center--playground. Let's say they temporarily have asphalt only as a surface. That's a violation that will be covered by a response letter process as they secure funds to install the additional surfaces and if the license is up for renewal, it involves a continuance process.

Here's a link directly to SKS child immigrant programs if anyone would like additional information on what is provided.

http://www.swkey.org/programs/shelters/
Failure is not falling down but refusing to get up.
Chinese Proverb
_Jersey Girl
_Emeritus
Posts: 34407
Joined: Wed Oct 25, 2006 1:16 am

Re: Trump's War on Children

Post by _Jersey Girl »

I missed this one.

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:How many of these children arrived with their parents?

- Doc


I don't think this has been verified nor can it be verified without DNA testing.
Failure is not falling down but refusing to get up.
Chinese Proverb
_Jersey Girl
_Emeritus
Posts: 34407
Joined: Wed Oct 25, 2006 1:16 am

Re: Trump's War on Children

Post by _Jersey Girl »

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:Honor,

While I appreciate your input it doesn't really answer the question. Additionally, can anyone on this board tell us exactly how many of these children arrived with their parents?

People like to bitch about child sex rings or human trafficking, but isn't this facility the very thing we need to document illegal immigrant children to ensure they aren't funneled into bad situations? I strongly recommend those outraged to read my linked article, and then explain in detail what you'd do differently and why that's better than what's being done now.

- Dod


Yes, it is exactly what is needed. In addition to reading your linked article, I would encourage anyone to read my lengthy response to you two posts above this.
Failure is not falling down but refusing to get up.
Chinese Proverb
_honorentheos
_Emeritus
Posts: 11104
Joined: Thu Feb 04, 2010 5:17 am

Re: Trump's War on Children

Post by _honorentheos »

There are other options.

The issue is that the Trump administration has enacted policy that demands the adults who arrive at the border be jailed. In a perfect world there would be enough resources available that families could be guided through the required processes that allowed them to receive their required hearings and council within the minimum time a minor could be detained. The system is overwhelmed now, and also understaffed.

So there is no viable and immediate option that can allow families to be detained together without breaking the law. If one is of the mindset that the adults need to be detained at all costs, then Jersey Girl and Cam. If one prioritizes keeping the families together then there are many other options but they don't involve keeping people in de facto jail for long periods of time until they can get a hearing and the law be otherwise complied with. So, while Cam and Jersey Girl don't want to accept this as valid, being upset with Trump's policy is a legitimate complaint. His policy is consistent with his obsessive anti-latin American immigrant posture, and this is another manifestation of that which didn't exist before him because the Obama admin prioritized human rights over zero tolerance so there ended up being an acceptable number of families who simply disappeared rather than fulfill their obligation to appear at their hearings.

Put more simply, Trump is willing to tolerate broken families and a certain number of children being taken advantage of or not being reunited with their families to prevent immigrants from potentially getting into the country. Past administrations did not share this view.
The world is always full of the sound of waves..but who knows the heart of the sea, a hundred feet down? Who knows it's depth?
~ Eiji Yoshikawa
_honorentheos
_Emeritus
Posts: 11104
Joined: Thu Feb 04, 2010 5:17 am

Re: Trump's War on Children

Post by _honorentheos »

Jersey Girl wrote:I would encourage anyone to read my lengthy response to you two posts above this.

That's easy. It's wrong. Read my posts.

(funny how that game works)
The world is always full of the sound of waves..but who knows the heart of the sea, a hundred feet down? Who knows it's depth?
~ Eiji Yoshikawa
_Jersey Girl
_Emeritus
Posts: 34407
Joined: Wed Oct 25, 2006 1:16 am

Re: Trump's War on Children

Post by _Jersey Girl »

honorentheos wrote:Cam, The issue isn't how to house kids taken from their families.


Yes, it is.
Failure is not falling down but refusing to get up.
Chinese Proverb
_honorentheos
_Emeritus
Posts: 11104
Joined: Thu Feb 04, 2010 5:17 am

Re: Trump's War on Children

Post by _honorentheos »

Jersey Girl wrote:
honorentheos wrote:Cam, The issue isn't how to house kids taken from their families.

Yes, it is.

No it's not. The kids need to be kept in shelters because the Trump administration is subverting the law. This condition did not exist until they enacted a policy that made it a secondary condition. They are willing to see kids and families hurt because they prefer this to the risk of some families slipping away into the country. That's a choice based on their priorities. No one is obligated to accept that it is also inevitable.
The world is always full of the sound of waves..but who knows the heart of the sea, a hundred feet down? Who knows it's depth?
~ Eiji Yoshikawa
Post Reply