Fear of the Left . . .

[Guest]

I think Conservatives have a very deep fear of Liberals. I just learned [violation of Universal Rule #3 deleted]. Some might say that it was a hair fire reaction of the former to being outed by the latter, but I would say it's because Stalin killed millions of people.

- Doc

[Deleted]
I find it supremely laughable these crap talking Conservos like ldsfaqs, TexasMormon, and now the anon-puss are so flaccid they wither away the moment even a whiff of reality looks their way.

- Doc

[_Xenophon]

I'd like to hear an answer to that too.

Hey Chap,

I've asked this question before and I've never gotten an answer. If you ever want utter silence, ask what makes America great.

And as a follow up to that question, if America is so great, why do we need to make it great again? Doesn't that imply it was great at one time, but isn't any more, and it needs to return to its former glory? What made it great before that suddenly went away? (I have my own personal answer to this question, but I highly suspect my answer is much different the idiot President's).

I think you are correct that people pay lip service to these kinds of ideas but never really think about what they're saying.

So, to review, it's the greatest country in the world that needs to be made great again... or something.

Obviously I can't speak for Ceebs but I'll take a run at how I typically read these kinds of statements, perhaps I give too much leeway though.

I think claiming one country as the single best is going to pretty subjective, you could use any number of metrics to prove or disprove this idea. What I will say is that for any number of its faults, America still represents (and is viewed by many both in and out) a land of nearly unparalleled opportunity for so many people. Although there are lots of countries where one can build a wonderful life with little more than hard work, ingenuity and a bit of luck, I suspect America ranks pretty high up there as a place many people think of building a better life.

Yesterday I had the great fortune of getting to celebrate Independence Day with a good friend who had earned his American Citizenship just 3 weeks prior, his first 4ᵗʰ as a full blown American. Needless to say he was ecstatic. This was the land where he had an opportunity to go to college, become a physical therapist, run a network of hospitals, meet his wife, build a new home. Perhaps he would have done all those things in his home country, or perhaps somewhere other than America. The point remains that when he wanted to build that better life for himself and his future, this is where he turned.

For me when I think of American exceptionalism, the above story is what I have in mind. I think this is why I view attempts to squash immigration (especially the legal kind) as so destructive to the idea of the US. And although I think we fall short of the ideal in so many ways it doesn't change the US's transformative power that I've seen lift up so many.

I understand that you can probably build a similar argument for many countries, it is why you will probably never hear me claim the USA as the "single" best. But it does put it high up on my list.

As to "MAGA" bit, that can jump off a cliff.

[_Some Schmo]

I think claiming one country as the single best is going to pretty subjective, you could use any number of metrics to prove or disprove this idea. What I will say is that for any number of its faults, America still represents (and is viewed by many both in and out) a land of nearly unparalleled opportunity for so many people. Although there are lots of countries where one can build a wonderful life with little more than hard work, ingenuity and a bit of luck, I suspect America ranks pretty high up there as a place many people think of building a better life.

This is a decent answer. Sometimes, the Internet can surprise you.

I don't think Americans are nearly as upwardly mobile as they used to be, due mostly to large corporate monopolies, but your point is taken.

Thanks for that, Xen.

Still curious about Ceeb's answer.

[_subgenius]

Was the lady in the picture jailed for refusing to obey the law and do her job, which was issuing marriage licenses?

If I recall rightly, she started refusing to issue marriage licenses to anybody, as a means to avoid issuing them to same-sex couples, as the law required. A judge ordered her to do her job, she refused, and so (surprise) she went to Jail.

What else should the judge have done? Baked her a cake? Elected officials don't get to choose which laws the obey and which they don't. If you don't want to obey the law, then of course you are free to resign.

So, the difference being "obedience of the law"? Which means if a sitting President who took an oath to uphold the law and do his/her job you would expect an arrest to made?
So, Kim David did not enforce a law and got persecuted by Democrats...fair enough.
But when Obama did not enforce law, how come Democrats were not equally outraged and asking for arrests?
*see also Obama instructs Napolitano not uphold lawful deportations, or to stop defending DOMA, or to stop prosecuting federal marijuana violations,...and so on....but that is different right? because Obama is on your side and Kim Davis is not...so thanks for the nice, but yet meaningless, clarification.

[_Xenophon]

This is a decent answer. Sometimes, the Internet can surprise you.

I don't think Americans are nearly as upwardly mobile as they used to be, due mostly to large corporate monopolies, but your point is taken.

Thanks for that, Xen.

Still curious about Ceeb's answer.

No problemo, Schmo. I give all credit for inspiration of the answer to my newly minted American friend. Having watched his journey over the years has really helped me keep things in perspective.

You'll find no disagreement from me that the part I bolded of yours is 100% true. Certainly we have to continue to work to improve on those things that are hindering upward mobility and my post should in no way be taken to mean that we've got it all figured out. I actually think one of the biggest things dividing Americans right now is the argument over what is the root cause of that mobility problem.

[_subgenius]

I don't think Americans are nearly as upwardly mobile as they used to be, due mostly to large corporate monopolies, but your point is taken.

You'll find no disagreement from me that the part I bolded of yours is 100% true. .

Since Schmo believes in good ole-fashioned fascist oppressive censorship as manifest by "Ignore" on a free speech site, I will ask you about the reasoning behind this notion of apparent stagnation.

How do corporate monopolies, which are mostly absent (and illegal) from modern America, bear this responsibility? How is mobility impeded by these corporations any more/less than say a mom/pop operation? or a steelworks?

Wouldn't upward mobility be far more likely attributed to other circumstances, like education? or countless other notions?

[_Maksutov]

Every group seems to overreach when it has the opportunity. Democrats are just as corrupt as Republicans where they're in power. The party system rewards unprincipled hustlers far too often and we see the fruits. Or we don't see them if our ideological blinders are strong enough.

[_Chap]

So, Kim David did not enforce a law and got persecuted by Democrats...fair enough.

No. She did not 'not enforce a law'. She refused to do her job, which was to issue marriage licences to people entitled to marry. She disobeyed a judge's legally issued order to do so. So he sent her to jail.

Your 'whataboutery' is noted and ignored as it deserves. You posted a picture of this lady, whom you allege was 'persecuted'. So it's her I'm talking about.

[Guest]

I think Conservatives have a very deep fear of Liberals. I just learned [violation of Universal Rule #3 deleted]. Some might say that it was a hair fire reaction of the former to being outed by the latter, but I would say it's because Stalin killed millions of people.

- Doc

[Deleted]

Oh, I agree with you wholeheartedly. But it's a rule that we should not talk about undisclosed in real life stuff on this board - and in particular not about stuff that we have learned about through PMs. I'd love to talk about that stuff too. But them's the rules.

[Guest]

Since Schmo believes in good ole-fashioned fascist oppressive censorship as manifest by "Ignore" on a free speech site

[Deleted]

Hypocrite much?

- Doc