Trump Disrespects Military... again

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_EAllusion
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Re: Trump Disrespects Military... again

Post by _EAllusion »

Morley wrote:I don't know about the rest of the military, but psychopaths in combat are the last thing the military wants. In my admittedly limited experience, the combat arms do a pretty good job of keeping them out.

Few people want psychopaths. Yet psychopaths end up entering the workforce (and succeeding) anyway. I'm not sure how you imagine the US military filters out psychopaths from joining a field they are attracted to, but given that they have more high scorers than the general prevalence, it must not be a perfect system.

My sense here is that you think "psychopath" means something like "serial killer" when it really means something like, "person who lacks empathy, is prone to aggression and manipulation, lacks concern for social norms, and has shallow affect." Psychopaths are uninhibited and mean, but that doesn't mean they can't navigate social environments. They can be really good at that. Norms are just instrumental to them.

I suspect DrW is making the same mistake. Psychopaths are notorious for superficial charm and low anxiety, which would present as "personable," "calm" and "stable" which he specifically cited as traits that people possess that prove they aren't high on psychopathy scale. Psychopaths are good at keeping it together in stressful situations. That's why jobs that present that are a natural fit for them.
_Morley
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Re: Trump Disrespects Military... again

Post by _Morley »

EAllusion wrote:
Morley wrote:I don't know about the rest of the military, but psychopaths in combat are the last thing the military wants. In my admittedly limited experience, the combat arms do a pretty good job of keeping them out.

Few people want psychopaths. Yet psychopaths end up entering the workforce (and succeeding) anyway. I'm not sure how you imagine the US military filters out psychopaths from joining a field they are attracted to, but given that they have more high scorers than the general prevalence, it must not be a perfect system.

My sense here is that you think "psychopath" means something like "serial killer" when it really means something like, "person who lacks empathy, is prone to aggression and manipulation, lacks concern for social norms, and has shallow affect." Psychopaths are uninhibited and mean, but that doesn't mean they can't navigate social environments. They can be really good at that. Norms are just instrumental to them.

I suspect DrW is making the same mistake. Psychopaths are notorious for superficial charm and low anxiety, which would present as "personable," "calm" and "stable" which he specifically cited as traits that people possess that prove they aren't high on psychopathy scale. Psychopaths are good at keeping it together in stressful situations. That's why jobs that present that are a natural fit for them.

I have some background in psychology. I'm very well aware of what you mean by psychopathy.

Are you trying to change the subject?
_Morley
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Re: Trump Disrespects Military... again

Post by _Morley »

EAllusion wrote:Why is it deplorable? I have a hard time with calling correct statements deplorable, but I want to push past that to your reaction. Obviously, some professions are going to be ones that disproportionately attract psychopaths given that psychopathy involves traits that are better and worse suited to different workplace environments. What if it turned out to be painters? It doesn't, but would it have been deplorable to say painting is a field that disproportionately attracts psychopaths?

There are data about psychopathy as applies to executives and prisoners. Not so much (that I'm aware) on soldiers or painters.
_Morley
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Re: Trump Disrespects Military... again

Post by _Morley »

Morley wrote:
EAllusion wrote:I don't know about the rest of the military, but psychopaths in combat are the last thing the military wants. In my admittedly limited experience, the combat arms do a pretty good job of keeping them out.

Few people want psychopaths. Yet psychopaths end up entering the workforce (and succeeding) anyway. I'm not sure how you imagine the US military filters out psychopaths from joining a field they are attracted to, but given that they have more high scorers than the general prevalence, it must not be a perfect system.

There's a difference. A psychopath sitting next to you in the boardroom won't get you killed. A psychopath walking behind you on a reconnaissance mission almost certainly will.
_EAllusion
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Re: Trump Disrespects Military... again

Post by _EAllusion »

Morley wrote:I have some background in psychology. I'm very well aware of what you mean by psychopathy.

Are you trying to change the subject?

You praised DrW for a post wherein he specifically cited traits you'd expect psychopaths to present as proof they aren't psychopaths. You then said the military and police are really good at keeping people who are prone to aggression, operate well in authority-driven social hierarchies, and can remain remarkably calm in stressful situations out. I responded to this post with the post you are quoting. That is the subject?
_Morley
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Re: Trump Disrespects Military... again

Post by _Morley »

EAllusion wrote:You praised DrW for a post wherein he specifically cited traits you'd expect psychopaths to present as proof they aren't psychopaths.

Not quite.

I excerpted two paragraphs of DrW's post that chided you and told him it was a good post.

EAllusion wrote:You then said the military and police are really good at keeping people who are prone to aggression, operate well in authority-driven social hierarchies, and can remain remarkably calm in stressful situations out.

Again, not quite. I'm not sure how you read that. (Drop the sarcasm, okay?)

I said that, unlike your examples of business executives and prisoners, the military and police at least attempt screen for psychopathy. I was suggesting your examples might not be so great.

EAllusion wrote:That is the subject?

Not really.

I'm trying get you to show me the data that show where the military attracts psychopaths. Your inference seemed to be that the military was rife with them. Absent data, this seems to be a prejudice of yours.

I respect you, EA. Otherwise, I wouldn't take the time or make the effort to challenge you. Because you're a credible voice, when you say something that seems biased, it has more impact.

I have no problem with you stating an opinion. However, when you state an opinion that can't be backed by data and then claim it's an 'objective fact,' I feel an obligation to demure and mutter, "Oh my!"
_Kevin Graham
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Re: Trump Disrespects Military... again

Post by _Kevin Graham »

Do Sociopaths Make Better Soldiers?

How The US Military Tried To Root Out Psychopaths During World War II

Which Professions Have the Most Psychopaths? The Fewest?

"Since psychopaths aren’t really fully involved in the heavy emotions that come with killing someone, governments admire this small percentage of people for their natural killing abilities. They are perfect for the military, as they are natural killers who feel little remorse for killing someone." - https://www.factinate.com/things/41-sta ... ychopaths/

Psychopathic Personality Traits in the Military: An Examination of the Levenson Self-Report Psychopathy Scales in a Novel Sample. - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28703011
_Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: Trump Disrespects Military... again

Post by _Doctor CamNC4Me »

https://www.businessinsider.com/profess ... 5#1-ceo-10

Since we're, you know, just posting garbage to post.

- Doc
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.

Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.
_Kevin Graham
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Re: Trump Disrespects Military... again

Post by _Kevin Graham »

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:https://www.businessinsider.com/professions-with-the-most-psychopaths-2018-5#1-ceo-10

Since we're, you know, just posting garbage to post.

- Doc


Yeah that's basically the same list in the Time link I provided. Interesting that #7 is Police Officer. Makes sense I guess, for the same reasons it makes sense for the military to attract those types of people.
_Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: Trump Disrespects Military... again

Post by _Doctor CamNC4Me »

I probably should've typed /s in my post above. Here someone argues that principals are psychopaths:

https://www.theeducatoronline.com/au/ne ... ath/239954

The point is the argument that a certain profession draws more than its fair share of psychopaths is objectively retarded. How in the “F” would you quantify that? Is there some sort of psychopath questionnaire they voluntarily fill out and submit to EA's charitable organization for tracking? What's more likely? The military, which EA knows virtually nothing about, is some sort of magnet and retention pond for psychopaths, or EA simply made an assertion and has set about defending it because he can never, ever, under any circumstance, be less smart than anyone else and admit to being wrong?

Kind of like a...?

- Doc
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.

Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.
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