Chicago mass shooting

[_Xenophon]

I agree that the Center for Disease Control and Prevention ought to provide some guidance regarding firearm-related deaths. That said, if you go back to the link and scroll down to table I-3 you can clearly see the total annual deaths from 1999 to 2018. The totals are growing every year. If I had to guess all those deaths and injuries have probably cost us around a trillion dollars. I can't see how it makes sense both economically and culturally to keep guns and rifles from getting in the hands of regular people.

I think we're pretty much on the same page. I will say that I think the possibility of us ever getting some kind of Port Arthur style response vanished after Sandy Hook, if the slaughtering of children didn't inspire drastic change in us as a nation I'm not sure anything can. Instead I think it will have to be a slow roll; expanding back ground checks, stricter child-access laws, banning particular styles/accessories/ammunition. And I think it is going to take a long time, although I'd love to be wrong about it.

[_Jersey Girl]

Tim Ryan on Trump tying gun control to immigration:

"It's an absolute freaking joke."

Further:

"(Senate Majority Leader) Mitch McConnell needs to get off his ass and do something. People are getting killed in the streets in America and nobody is acting. Nobody. There's a bottleneck in the United States Senate. The House has sent a comprehensive background check bill supported that's by 80 to 90% of the American people. What the hell are we doing in the United States of America?" Mitch McConnel needs to get off his ass and do something."

https://www.cnn.com/2019/08/05/politics ... index.html

[_Markk]

Is this a guessing game? What is the root problem since I'm unable to identify it.

- Doc

Once again, behavior. Like you basically wrote, guns are a convenient effective means, for bad, evil, and/or sick behavior to inflect injury.

Basically, the root problem is there whether it is a fist, a knife, or a gun. Can we agree on this?

That is the root cause.

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

I would disagree that human behavior is the root cause. It's the symptom of something more fundamental.

Human nature.

Would you fault two male gamecocks for fighting if you placed them in the same pen? It's in their nature. Why in the world would you strap spurs to their legs if you understand their nature, but was expecting some other outcome, even if you gave them healthy food, a house, good care, and hens?

Can we agree that human nature lends itself to the problem of firearm violence?

- Doc

[_moksha]

I think this is why Trump is so successful with this crowd because he doesn't communicate like an adult, but rather he communicates like a meme. He's good at transmitting ideas through theater where logic, pragmatism, and structure mean next to nothing, and idea-generating, quick-punch statements, and imagery is used with incredible effectiveness.

Trump has captured the essence of radical hand-puppet theater from the Middle Ages. What better way is there to transmit anger and rage and paranoia to his constituency?

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

Trump has captured the essence of radical hand-puppet theater from the Middle Ages. What better way is there to transmit anger and rage and paranoia to his constituency?

Political cartoons and folksy columns served with a side of smarm published at the Salt Lake Tribune?

- Doc

[_Markk]

I would disagree that human behavior is the root cause. It's the symptom of something more fundamental.

Human nature.

Would you fault two male gamecocks for fighting if you placed them in the same pen? It's in their nature. Why in the world would you strap spurs to their legs if you understand their nature, but was expecting some other outcome, even if you gave them healthy food, a house, good care, and hens?

Can we agree that human nature lends itself to the problem of firearm violence?

- Doc

As a Christian, for me it is a sin problem, which translates to a corrupted nature. I purposely stayed away from that in that I am looking for a real conversation, and I know mine is not a popular view here...but in that context I certainly agree that it is a human nature problem.

However not all, in fact, very few, go around killing other humans, either one at a time, or in mass, in the context of our discussion.

If it is just a human nature problem, how do other humans help others that go beyond the norm of how most people behave within the context of our nature?

Where does good, evil, right, and wrong play into this in finding the root? Also where does accountability and justice fit into this.

Thanks

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

but in that context I certainly agree that it is a human nature problem.

I'm glad we found common ground. What is a solution we could immediately employ that would radically reduce the numbers we saw in table I-3, of the CDC report I posted? As a reminder, nearly 40,000 Americans lost their lives to firearms last year with about 42,000 injured.

However not all, in fact, very few, go around killing other humans, either one at a time, or in mass, in the context of our discussion.

That's true. The current US population is ~330,000,000. 1% is 3,300,000. .1% is 330,000. .01% is 33,000. We 'only' lose a bit over 1/100th of our population every year to firearms. Are you ok with that, and if not, how have you engaged your elected representatives to effectuate change that falls within your ideological narrative?

Where does good, evil, right, and wrong play into this in finding the root? Also where does accountability and justice fit into this.

We already agreed the root cause is human nature. All of what you just listed is found within our nature. We found the root, Markk. It's human nature. Period.

How do we set about ensuring that we don't allow our natures to result in 40,000 killed and 40,000+ injured per year by firearms? That's the issue. What is a pragmatic and commons sense solution that is cheaper and more 'implementable' than what we're paying now by doing next to nothing?

As far as accountability goes, it's found at the end of that barrel, Markk. That's the consequence. And whoever is pulling that trigger, if they're found and if it's not a suicide attempt, they're typically ushered into our judicial system. That's accountability.

Please take a moment to address either one of my underlined questions, if you don't mind.

- Doc

[_canpakes]

We already agreed the root cause is human nature. All of what you just listed is found within our nature. We found the root, Markk. It's human nature. Period.

How do we set about ensuring that we don't allow our natures to result in 40,000 killed and 40,000+ injured per year by firearms? That's the issue. What is a pragmatic and commons sense solution that is cheaper and more 'implementable' than what we're paying now by doing next to nothing?

As far as accountability goes, it's found at the end of that barrel, Markk. That's the consequence. And whoever is pulling that trigger, if they're found and if it's not a suicide attempt, they're typically ushered into our judicial system. That's accountability.

What gets me about Markks argument is that religiously-inclined individuals limit or outright give up any number of props or devices in order to achieve a better behavioral outcome. Things like alcohol, or prescription medicines, or sex outside of marriage, or (gasp!) showing or looking at a bare shoulder. So fragile is our human nature, apparently, and our potential for self harm so great from exposure to such a thing that it cannot be gazed upon in polite society, right?

But, firearms? That's quite possibly the most dangerous prop we can possess. And yet, can we even discuss a sensible approach to their use? Nope; in fact for many of the same folks described above, it is seen as a right, sometimes even a duty, to obtain and hoard as many firearms as possible, and instead to snuff out all talk of rational firearm attitudes or responsible controls on access.

There's some interesting rationalization going on there.

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

There's some interesting rationalization going on there.

Boy, you're not kidding. Nearly 800,000 Americans dead over the last twenty years with another million wounded. The upfront cost is around, and I'm lowballing this, $90,000,000,000 with who knows how much in disability, interest payments on the debt for that bill, and then the related judicial costs. Additionally, you have the trauma that stays with the families on both sides of that discharged firearm.

If going to church and more Jesus, which has been amply available to us since, I dunno, a couple of thousand years ago hasn't changed human nature then what can we do, right now, to create the framework that immediately reduces these figures?

Why can't Conservatives let go of their guns? I did it. A retired MSG, former USASOC soldier, let go of my S&W .40 w/maglite and laser pointer because I realized a country that's disarmed is far better than one armed to the teeth shooting each other when our nature exerts itself. Let's just make them highly regulated, licensed, and to reserve them for sportsmen and hunters. Too easy.

- Doc