The Downward Spiral of Contempt

[honorentheos]

Honor, thanks so much for posting it. I finally had the time to digest this today.

I'm obviously a bit biased towards this line of thinking. I like to believe it is reflective of some things I've tried to do in my own life. The idea that we won't persuade anyone to our way of thinking with insults just makes sense to me. Keeping in mind that I'm still terrible at it. It is a hard process, especially if at times you feel like you're the only one making the leap.

A call out for strategy that I think I don't think we've covered yet:

The Dalai Lama himself says that we "practice warm-heartedness". He suggests we do this by recalling a time when we've answered contempt with kindness, reflect on that feeling, then work to recreate it. This is connected to his principle that it is the practice and act that matter more than the belief at first. Effectively you condition yourself to deal with contempt with love and the belief in it will flow from that. "Fake it till you make it" so to speak. (I've added his book to my list, hopefully he expands further on this)

As to the idea that this all goes away with a new generation I'm not hopeful. I think Kish's recent post about internal academia strife highlights that well. Even assuming all Republicans died tomorrow that wouldn't end societal contempt for those of the out group. The left would just change who the out group is (or vice versa if you prefer). Tribalism runs far too deep in our bones to be solved by some people aging out.

Hi Xeno,

Just read your post and really appreciate it. In particular the recommendation from the Dalai Lama regarding tying emotional positive memories to it. The idea it requires meta-cognitive behavior is critical to the entire enterprise. One doesn't likewise change their eating habits because sugar stops being sweet and our biochemistry has been miraculously calibrated to only crave healthy foods.

[Res Ipsa]

Honor, thanks so much for posting it. I finally had the time to digest this today.

I'm obviously a bit biased towards this line of thinking. I like to believe it is reflective of some things I've tried to do in my own life. The idea that we won't persuade anyone to our way of thinking with insults just makes sense to me. Keeping in mind that I'm still terrible at it. It is a hard process, especially if at times you feel like you're the only one making the leap.

A call out for strategy that I think I don't think we've covered yet:

The Dalai Lama himself says that we "practice warm-heartedness". He suggests we do this by recalling a time when we've answered contempt with kindness, reflect on that feeling, then work to recreate it. This is connected to his principle that it is the practice and act that matter more than the belief at first. Effectively you condition yourself to deal with contempt with love and the belief in it will flow from that. "Fake it till you make it" so to speak. (I've added his book to my list, hopefully he expands further on this)

As to the idea that this all goes away with a new generation I'm not hopeful. I think Kish's recent post about internal academia strife highlights that well. Even assuming all Republicans died tomorrow that wouldn't end societal contempt for those of the out group. The left would just change who the out group is (or vice versa if you prefer). Tribalism runs far too deep in our bones to be solved by some people aging out.

Hi Xeno,

Just read your post and really appreciate it. In particular the recommendation from the Dalai Lama regarding tying emotional positive memories to it. The idea it requires meta-cognitive behavior is critical to the entire enterprise. One doesn't likewise change their eating habits because sugar stops being sweet and our biochemistry has been miraculously calibrated to only crave healthy foods.

The flavor of meditation called "Loving Kindness Meditation" does something similar.

[Xenophon]

This is serious stuff.

- Doc

I can't get on board with taking the right wing meme machine more seriously than individuals choosing to enact good and consciously deciding to do things for the good of others as their main priority when it comes to Civic engagement.

I agree entirely that it is serious stuff, Doc. I think what Brooks is suggesting though is you won't beat that movement, however real it is, by calling the dude a dumb fudger and rolling your eyes. The argument isn't against using procedural methods to win, or debating topics, or appointing like minded judges, or hitting the pavement (or whatever action you think will help make the world better). It is about the methodology and tone when you do those things. The thought is all major change comes through grass roots movements and it is about being behind the right kind of movement, regardless of political leaning.

I think it is an easy mistake to take kindness as weakness or complacency. Just because I don't call someone a raging moron for their stance doesn't mean I have to let it be. I think the CNN v Rogan thread is an excellent example of that. In their reporting they went for the dig on Rogan and it disrupted their otherwise sound argument. Had they stuck to the relevant argument and not gone for the "horse paste eating" angle, they likely would have had a better chance at reaching someone that might otherwise would have sided with Rogan.

[Xenophon]

Hi Xeno,

Just read your post and really appreciate it. In particular the recommendation from the Dalai Lama regarding tying emotional positive memories to it. The idea it requires meta-cognitive behavior is critical to the entire enterprise. One doesn't likewise change their eating habits because sugar stops being sweet and our biochemistry has been miraculously calibrated to only crave healthy foods.

The flavor of meditation called "Loving Kindness Meditation" does something similar.

Exactly, honor. Again I appreciate you sharing this one.

I'll have to give that a Google, Res. There goes my Friday afternoon!

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

This is serious stuff.

- Doc

I can't get on board with taking the right wing meme machine more seriously than individuals choosing to enact good and consciously deciding to do things for the good of others as their main priority when it comes to Civic engagement.

I came across this Reddit thread this morning:

https://www.reddit.com/r/pics/comments/ ... 2782983907

background: former Marine stops armed robbery - gets an award from the city



I’m not necessarily contradicting you, Honor, but I do think the meme culture is so thoroughly infused into our consciousness that it’s essentially reality for at least half the country on both sides. For example, the former Marine during an interview stated, “Epstein didn’t kill himself.” This dude’s reality is shaped by 4chan alt right talking points, and whatever is going on with the Right.

One of the problems with the Left is they tend to deal in good faith, at the highest levels, while the Right doesn’t. At the grassroots level the Left (not the extreme Left like the socialists) used to take the more amicable approach while Limbaugh and his ilk waged relentless nastiness from their soapboxes - this was then adopted by the grassroots Right. It’s only recently with the election of Trump and he rise of grassroots alt-Rightism that the Left has plunged into a ‘fight fire with fire’ mentality, which has metastasized into what we have now with frothing-at-the-mouth partisans screaming at each other.

Anyway. I agree that your suggested reorienting of our collective good will toward one another would be good for individuals and for our country, I just think it’s an impossible ask. The grassroots are beyond reasonableness, and the leadership on the Right is a reflection of that, and it’s probably just a matter of time before we see more AOCs rise on the left.

So, back to the Reddit thread. I urge you to read the whole thing, not just skim it. It’s very, very, very concerning. People have normalized being at each other’s throats and it doesn't get better unless there’s a huge shift in the media, with political leadership, and culturally a revolt against politicization happens.

- Doc

[honorentheos]

Hi Cam,

5000 reddit comment is a lot to ask of someone. I don't see what I would get out of it, either. I started reading and the first ones were mostly a reflection of the problem being discussed of mutual contempt. I have to beg off of your ask as while I'm sure it's depressing to read...I can make other choices.

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

Hi Cam,

5000 reddit comment is a lot to ask of someone. I don't see what I would get out of it, either. I started reading and the first ones were mostly a reflection of the problem being discussed of mutual contempt. I have to beg off of your ask as while I'm sure it's depressing to read...I can make other choices.

Yeah, at the time it wasn’t that large. My bad.

eta:



- Doc