Markk wrote:You have yet to show me how you make more money because of illegal immigration?
Yes, he has. You don't want to accept or read what's been presented, which isn't really his fault.
Markk wrote:You have tried to shift the discussion to a buying power argument of sorts, which is equally wrong in that buying power is way down since the immigration flood also.
That's not true. But even if it were, you have demonstrated neither correlation nor causation.
Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:What we shouldn't do is just allow millions of people to flood into the country.
But if we implemented a system you describe above that is what we will be doing, right? You don't think millions of Mexicans who've yet to build up the courage to cross the border illegally would jump at an opportunity to come here legally if it were as simple as getting documented and being put on a path to citizenship?
No. Because we would fill quotas rather than open the floodgates and then figure it out from there. But, truth be told I'm not sure outside of clearly seeing the current system is ridiculous.
Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:I don't see how it's good for anyone on either side other than those who enjoy a tasty and cheap Happy Meal.
They do it because it does benefit them and their families, and their presence benefits the American people well beyond saving a few bucks on fast food. As far as paying taxes is concerned, I agree the current system is messed up. But they do pay taxes.
Brother, if you ever get the chance to do business with your average Jose, you'll understand why virtually everything is done on a cash basis.
edited: I realize I've made the fatal mistake of admitting I'm not sure about a particular point, but I promise to google more in the future and then attempt to pass it off as my own thinking like a certain someone has made a habit of doing. Pinky promise.
- Doc
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.
Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.
honorentheos wrote:Was it a fair summary of your position?
ETA: I'm more concerned about confirming the summary of your bullet point 1's rather than the 2 and 3 items. The later were fairly clear. Bullet point one and it's sub-bullets aren't as clear as it seems it's coming from a place of cynicism.
Well, my first bullet was what I think our market policy should be, but admitting at the same time we're going to have people and corporations abuse it by paying people, in some cases, an absurdly low wage. There are attempts to correct this kind of immorality with a minimum wage, but I tend to think in most cases it's unwise to mandate a wage for the aforementioned reasons.
I suppose we could just close tax loopholes and take more of the 1-5%'ers money to finance the cost of lettuce rather than borrowing money to subsidize industries that take advantage of poor minorities. But then again I'm the board racist so I should probably reconsider a position that respects migrant workers, their health, and their dignity.
- Doc
This is probably as good of a time as any to point out that you favor tying basic benefits to meet a minimum standard of living to submitting to government sterilization. You know, because you care so much about the poor that you are willing to tie the dignity of the social safety net to coerced eugenics. When immigrants are allowed to cross the border for economic opportunity in the DocCam immigration plan, should they too have to submit to your mandatory sterilization in exchange for basic standard of living program? Or is that just narrowly tailored to those who take advantage of in-kind monetary benefits rather than being issued guest worker visas? I'm genuinely unclear on how your "the disadvantaged need to be sterilized " plan works. You know, because you care so much about their dignity.
Sure Analytics, but they don't necessarily benefit equally; one country might barely benefit, and redistribute wealth in ways that make the gains hollow.
Both parties technically benefit in any number of obvious exploitation/highway robbery examples.
But really that's all a small side issue, because the main point is that conservatives are supposed to trust the market.
(ETA-- In international trade the question becomes when balance of trade is or isn't a problem, but in the surrounding discussion on this thread, the controversy seems to be whether in principle an infusion of cheap labor can benefit the economy)
Last edited by Guest on Mon Mar 12, 2018 3:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
Lou Midgley 08/20/2020: "...meat wad," and "cockroach" are pithy descriptions of human beings used by gemli? They were not fashioned by Professor Peterson.
LM 11/23/2018: one can explain away the soul of human beings...as...a Meat Unit, to use Professor Peterson's clever derogatory description of gemli's ideology.
Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:Brother, if you ever get the chance to do business with your average Jose, you'll understand why virtually everything is done on a cash basis. - Doc
I wasn't referring to strictly income taxes, however in 2010 more than 3 million ITIN holders paid income taxes. There are roughly 8 million illegal immigrants in the labor force. I think you're right that private contractors are more than likely to get paid in cash, but this is true for most workers doing those same kinds of jobs.
Markk wrote:LOL...how are you stringing me along? Please explain how...what I have seen is that you are naïve of what is going on in the world, and think you can understand it with pick and choosing google hits.
I was asking a series of Socratic questions to get to the point that the labor pool you describe as terrible is actually good, good-enough, for your business. You don't like the hassle, but you also find the hassle necessary to produce a satisfactory product at a competitive price. Tough business, I suppose.
You have yet to show me how you make more money because of illegal immigration?
I've explained the position multiple times. You are willfully ignorant at this point. That's all that can be said.
I have to ask...do you live in your parents basement? I honestly get the feeling that you have not experienced the world much.
Yes, only in the "real world" can people understand that pointy headed economists don't know what they're talking about. There was a time when the Republican party wasn't the party of rampant anti-intellectualism. That time is not today.
Because if we did, we would not be competitive in bidding, and we would go out of business.
What kept you from paying a higher rate to laborers when you were doing work on your own home? Why did you choose the guys in the Home Depot parking lot as opposed to 'more skilled' folks?
Markk wrote:LOL...how are you stringing me along? Please explain how...what I have seen is that you are naïve of what is going on in the world, and think you can understand it with pick and choosing google hits.
I was asking a series of Socratic questions to get to the point that the labor pool you describe as terrible is actually good for your business. You don't like the hassle, but you also find the hassle necessary to produce a satisfactory product at a competitive price. Tough business, I suppose.
You have yet to show me how you make more money because of illegal immigration?
I've explained the position multiple times. You are willfully ignorant at this point. That's all that can be said.
I have to ask...do you live in your parents basement? I honestly get the feeling that you have not experienced the world much.
Yes, only in the "real world" can people understand that pointy headed economists don't know what they're talking about. There was a time when the Republican party wasn't the party of rampant anti-intellectualism. That time is not today.
EA...You did not answer my question...you diverted. You made a assertion that
Immigrants actually raise wages for all but those who lack a high school degree, and the effect even there is relatively modest. I suppose this might be counterintuitive until you realize that more participants in a consumer economy produces economic growth, which leads to wage increases.
If you want to depress wages, cut off immigration.
I am asking you to simply state how your wages are higher becasue of immigration...I showed you how in construction that is false...we can go through other jobs and professions and jobs, and you can show me how their wage are higher.
You stated that that if immigration was stopped, wages would depress...how would your wages go down if immigration stopped. I asked for you to be specific and you keep ducking me.
Where were you stringing me along? Point me to that post.
I was serious when I asked if you live with your parents...you don't have to answer.
Don't take life so seriously in that " sooner or later we are just old men in funny clothes" "Tom 'T-Bone' Wolk"
canpakes wrote:What kept you from paying a higher rate to laborers when you were doing work on your own home? Why did you choose the guys in the Home Depot parking lot as opposed to 'more skilled' folks?
It has nothing to do with skill, it was about ease and price. I needed some yard work done for a day, and it was cheaper. But I did take a big chance becasue they were not insured. Me being a hypocrite does not change the fact that illegal immigrants lower wages for construction workers...in fact it proves my point.
What do/did you do for a living? How does illegal immigration raise your wages.
Don't take life so seriously in that " sooner or later we are just old men in funny clothes" "Tom 'T-Bone' Wolk"