MDB Bible Study

[_Some Schmo]

There are at least 7 different peaks in Utah all called Mollies Nipple...

Confucius say girl with training bra make mountain out of molehill.

[_honorentheos]

There are at least 7 different peaks in Utah all called Mollies Nipple...

Confucius say girl with training bra make mountain out of molehill.

Training? I Wonder...

[_Res Ipsa]

It’s not Bible study, but I’ve been listening to one of the Great Courses series on Christian Theology. It’s been really interesting for me, and has helped me understand how the theology developed over time. My local library has started carrying a bunch of the courses, so my good friend Libby borrows and plays them for me.

[_Ceeboo]

Hey RI

It’s not Bible study, but I’ve been listening to one of the Great Courses series on Christian Theology. It’s been really interesting for me, and has helped me understand how the theology developed over time. My local library has started carrying a bunch of the courses, so my good friend Libby borrows and plays them for me.

As the author of this thread, I wanted you to know that any Bible related topic is more than welcome in the Bible study thread - This includes things that your good friend Libby plays for you.

Having said that, what do yo mean when you say that it "has helped me understand how the theology developed over time?"

[_Some Schmo]

Having said that, what do yo mean when you say that it "has helped me understand how the theology developed over time?"

I imagine that statement would be confusing.

What he's implying is that theology has evolved. I know religious people think things like this just poofed into existence, but that's not how the universe works.

Of course theology has evolved over time. The entire religious apologists activity is the act of evolving religion. They make up lies to explain away previous lies. That's how religion evolves - it has to, or it will not survive. Just think of all the different christian religions with a common ancestor. They're all sort of similar, but they all have minor to major variations, like you'd expect with cousins.

That's why the older a religion is, the less their adherents generally take it seriously. It's new cults where you find the craziest people.

[_Ceeboo]

Hey POOM

Having said that, what do yo mean when you say that it "has helped me understand how the theology developed over time?"

I imagine that statement would be confusing.

What he's implying is that theology has evolved. I know religious people think things like this just poofed into existence, but that's not how the universe works.

Of course theology has evolved over time. The entire religious apologists activity is the act of evolving religion. They make up lies to explain away previous lies. That's how religion evolves - it has to, or it will not survive. Just think of all the different christian religions with a common ancestor. They're all sort of similar, but they all have minor to major variations, like you'd expect with cousins.

I'm not sure if you are correct regarding what RI is implying? But as far as what you suggest: Yes, I would agree that religions have evolved over time (Mormonism is a very good example of that in my opinion) - But how do you think (if you think?) that biblical Christianity has evolved over time?

That's why the older a religion is, the less their adherents generally take it seriously.

This strikes me as completely false on a variety of levels. Jews don't take Judaism seriously? Biblical Christians don't take Biblical Christianity seriously? Muslims don't take Islam seriously? Buddhists don't take Buddhism seriously?

[_honorentheos]

Supposing -

1) There was a point in time when there were human beings on the planet in the past prior to which it never occurred to any human that there was a being such as described in the Judeo-Christian Bible,

2) Over time various beliefs about deities formed describing a diverse pantheons of gods in a region located in and around the modern Middle East,

3) These pantheons and beliefs about the gods that were in them were combined and shifted around as the culture and circumstances of the people changed,

4) During a period of extreme national crisis one view coalesced into one of these deities being the one, true God and the people being the chosen people of the promise by covenant with this God,

5) At a later moment of national crisis while subjugated to yet another in a long line of dominant powers, a popular view arose that the people needed to return to the one, true God who would deliver them from this dominant power,

6) One prophet of this view made his way to the capital city of the people after rallying supporters in a small, rural area, made a move calling the supposed corrupt government of the people to repent and return to the One, True God and proclaim God would deliver the people from the dominant power by the immanent arrival of a champion,

7) The dominant power and the local government didn't take this kind of thing well as it caused a lot of problems they didn't need, so they executed him,

8) The view arose that this prophet WAS the champion whose arrival was immanent, and he was raised from the dead by the one, true God signaling the imminent deliverance of the people from the dominant power,

9) The civic unrest and issues this people presented to the dominant power due to their religious beliefs being a problem, the dominant power exercised both forceful suppression of revolt while also working to draw the poison out of the religious beliefs by propagating a different view that this deceased prophet was a messenger of peace who promised peaceable people a heavenly kingdom rather than being a militant leader meant to trample down the dominant power and restore an earthly kingdom,

10) The dominant power was successful in their forceful put-down of revolts by ultimately evicting the people from the geographic center of their belief that the One, True God would restore their kingdom to them while making the defanged version of the religion the official religion of the dominant power as well,

11) Modern believers in this defanged version of that religion maintain beliefs in an earthly conquest of the reframed spiritual warfare version of this old belief, now viewing individuals and nations as being in league with evil while others are aligned with good while fully expecting the champion of the One, True God to physically come to earth and trample those they view as being on the side of evil.

[_Res Ipsa]

Hey RI

It’s not Bible study, but I’ve been listening to one of the Great Courses series on Christian Theology. It’s been really interesting for me, and has helped me understand how the theology developed over time. My local library has started carrying a bunch of the courses, so my good friend Libby borrows and plays them for me.

As the author of this thread, I wanted you to know that any Bible related topic is more than welcome in the Bible study thread - This includes things that your good friend Libby plays for you.

Having said that, what do yo mean when you say that it "has helped me understand how the theology developed over time?"

Hi Ceeboo,

Thanks for the kind words.

I don't know if you've been told about the Mormon story of religious history. If you have, skip this paragraph and the next one. I was taught something like this: When Jesus was alive, he not only taught a bunch of stuff, performed a bunch of miracles, died to atone for our sins, and was resurrected -- he also organized a church. That was the Church of Jesus Christ, v.1. Over time, the church decayed and became corrupt -- losing the priesthood authority that had been conferred by Jesus. In time it became the Great and Abominable Church. (It wasn't politically correct to say it, but we all knew it was the Roman Catholic Church.) Then a bunch of guys, starting with Martin Luther, tried to fix what was wrong with the GAC, but they didn't have the priesthood authority, so they couldn't do it right. (Sorry, Martin. Good try.) More and more guys started their own churches and soon there was this confused jumble of churches, all claiming that they were the "true" church.

Enter Joseph Smith. God and Jesus appeared to him and told him all the other churches were full of it. They would restore the one and only true church of Jesus Christ, v.2. And so, with maybe a few details like styles of chapels, the Mormon church was a restoration of the church that Jesus set up in the first place.

So, when I was a Mormon, I knew the story of how we got from Jesus to modern-day Mormonism. And I didn't have to think about the theology over time, because the theology in 35CE was the same theology I was learning in Sunday School.

I eventually learned that the evidence we have doesn't look like the Mormon story. So, I was familiar with the word of Jesus as reported in the New Testament and I was somewhat familiar with Catholic doctrine. But I saw a huge gap, both in time and in substance between the two.

And then my thinking came around to something like this: At the time of the ascension, no one knew exactly when Jesus would return -- but it would be relatively soon. He spent a few years teaching people a new way to live, including not to sweat the details like food and shelter. He literally showed them that death was not the end. They were going to live with God, and he was off to prepare the way.

What need did he have to organize a church? Or develop any kind of detailed doctrine? Just spread the good news. Let everyone know that death isn't the end -- that the Messiah has come and will lead us to heaven.

But at some point, somebody must have realized that they might be waiting a while. And so began the need to organize, both physically and in terms of theology. His original followers were Jews. What did it mean for a Jew to become a follower of Jesus? What does it mean to fulfill the law and prophets? Do we just throw the Torah away? Do we throw out all the laws? Or do we keep some of them? To be a follower of Jesus, must one first become a Jew? If not, what about their covenants with Jehovah? What's heaven going to be like? Jesus said to follow him, but he's up in heaven? How do we make sure at the day of judgment that we're one of the sheep and not the goats?

There's a million things the followers of Jesus had to figure out. It took them years to even figure out which of the many Jesus stories floating around were going to be considered official, let alone develop a whole theology around him. In particular, there were two pieces of Christian theology that I just couldn't see in the words of Jesus: saving by faith alone and the trinity.

So, when my good friend Libby was showing me the latest additions to my local library, I noticed that they were collecting some of the Great Courses series. And one of them was the history of Christian Theology. And it shows that Christian Theology developed (I wouldn't say evolved, because the process doesn't look like evolution) over time. And learning more about how people over time wrestled with the question of who Jesus was, what he was saying, and what that all has to do with the rest of us is pretty darn interesting. It's a ton of material to absorb, and I'm a reader and this is audio, so I may end up listening a couple of times.

Christianity has had an enormous impact on the world I've lived in. It's kind of refreshing to think about it in terms of how it came about and what it means as opposed to arguing over whether it is true.

Thanks for asking.

[_Res Ipsa]

Supposing -

1) There was a point in time when there were human beings on the planet in the past prior to which it never occurred to any human that there was a being such as described in the Judeo-Christian Bible,

2) Over time various beliefs about deities formed describing a diverse pantheons of gods in a region located in and around the modern Middle East,

3) These pantheons and beliefs about the gods that were in them were combined and shifted around as the culture and circumstances of the people changed,

4) During a period of extreme national crisis one view coalesced into one of these deities being the one, true God and the people being the chosen people of the promise by covenant with this God,

5) At a later moment of national crisis while subjugated to yet another in a long line of dominant powers, a popular view arose that the people needed to return to the one, true God who would deliver them from this dominant power,

6) One prophet of this view made his way to the capital city of the people after rallying supporters in a small, rural area, made a move calling the supposed corrupt government of the people to repent and return to the One, True God and proclaim God would deliver the people from the dominant power by the immanent arrival of a champion,

7) The dominant power and the local government didn't take this kind of thing well as it caused a lot of problems they didn't need, so they executed him,

8) The view arose that this prophet WAS the champion whose arrival was immanent, and he was raised from the dead by the one, true God signaling the imminent deliverance of the people from the dominant power,

9) The civic unrest and issues this people presented to the dominant power due to their religious beliefs being a problem, the dominant power exercised both forceful suppression of revolt while also working to draw the poison out of the religious beliefs by propagating a different view that this deceased prophet was a messenger of peace who promised peaceable people a heavenly kingdom rather than being a militant leader meant to trample down the dominant power and restore an earthly kingdom,

10) The dominant power was successful in their forceful put-down of revolts by ultimately evicting the people from the geographic center of their belief that the One, True God would restore their kingdom to them while making the defanged version of the religion the official religion of the dominant power as well,

11) Modern believers in this defanged version of that religion maintain beliefs in an earthly conquest of the reframed spiritual warfare version of this old belief, now viewing individuals and nations as being in league with evil while others are aligned with good while fully expecting the champion of the One, True God to physically come to earth and trample those they view as being on the side of evil.

Does the story need to be that elaborate, I wonder? Let's say you've got a people who've regularly gotten their asses kicked in the Middle East. And they've developed a religious/cultural narrative that explains why this keeps happening. They are God's chosen people. God is powerful, but doesn't suffer fools. When they obey and worship God, he rewards them with miracles and conquest. When they disobey, he punishes them with defeats and exile. They may be losing now, but he has promised that one day he will send a Messiah to conquer their earthly enemies.

After a fairly recent ass-kicking, a guy shows up with a message. "You've got it all wrong. We keep trying to fight our enemies (and getting our asses kicked). That's not what God wants us to do. Our victory will not be on the earth. It will be with God in heaven. Death is not the end, and I will prove it to you. Stop worrying about this world. Stop trying to get rich. If Ceasar wants taxes, pay them. Love your enemies. Take care of the poor. Take care of the sick. If you have it the worst on earth, you'll have it the best in heaven. That's what matters. (And we'll stop getting our asses kicked trying to fight).

He's executed as a heretic, but there are rumors that some of his followers have seen him alive. The rumors coalesce into stories, and a Jews for Jesus movement starts to form. Eventually, somebody in power figures out that a religion that tells people not to fight the government and to pay their taxes is a hell of a deal....

Or something.

[_honorentheos]

Christianity has had an enormous impact on the world I've lived in. It's kind of refreshing to think about it in terms of how it came about and what it means as opposed to arguing over whether it is true.

I relate to this a lot. I was still attending church and would describe myself as Christian if I no longer thought Joseph Smith was a particularly good person when I came across the books Lost Christianities and Lost Scripture in the library. Written by Bart Ehrman and written for a general audience, they threw my understanding of the period immediately following the death of Jesus into uncertainty the became an object of fascination. Over time history started clicking into place in ways I never even knew existed. Now I see it as a given the gaps in what I know far exceed the limited knowledge I've picked up but it's nicer for the opportunities for discovery.

Do you think this great course is an enjoyable listen in addition to the content being worth while? I've found audiobooks can be enhanced or completely ruined by narration that I either enjoy or otherwise so I'm curious if you enjoy listening to it?