Russia Likely Did Swing Votes For Donald Trump

[_honorentheos]

we have a inexhaustible supply of cheap waiver

Ain't that the truth.

[Guest]

I just gave you statistics that show that both wages and buying power are down, by about half, since 1960. These are real stats.

You produced one document of minimal relevance only for the year 1960-1961. The other three links were typical hiring websites that rely on anonymous volunteers for information about their pay. You initially emphasized nominal wage growth and now you're finally coming around to dealing with real wage growth, but you're only dealing with real wages that have been adjusted for inflation. You absolutely refuse to address real wages in terms of increased buying power due to cheaper products and services provided by immigrants.

The fact is buying power based on inflation had already been stagnate well before the "flood of immigration" of the mid-80's-mid-90's. So no, you still haven't shown any correlation there and until you have, you're light years away from demonstrating causation.



Notice that purchasing power has been stagnate but it actually saw an increase after illegal immigration tripled during the 90's.



Please explain how you determined the immigration boom of the 80's-90's was the cause for wage stagnation since the 60's.

If inflation adjusted wages show that factory workers are making about half they were in 1960 what does that indicate?

Absolutely nothing about immigration.

It is also worth pointing out that the reason factory workers made more money in the 60's is the same reason people back then could make a livable wage driving a bus or delivering milk. The age of automation has affected factory wages tremendously. But you want to pin it all on a "flood" of immigration that wouldn't happen for another quarter century.

[_Hawkeye]

EAllusion, you simply do not have a understanding of the real world, and what immigration is doing here in so cal and moving to other parts of the country. a piece of paper cannot possible explain that.

So ignore all the evidence that refutes your position, and stick with the bigoted premise.

I have asked you many time to explain to me how your wages are higher... I showed you how a carpenter wages are lower. The floor is yours.

You've shown no such thing. Carpentry is seasonal and highly dependent on the state of the economy. Carpenter's wages have actually increased due to high demand in recent years.

I asked if you live with your parents for a reason, you really seem to be void of what is going on in the country. Are you married with kids...a home owner? If so I am wrong on that.

You are wrong on that, and you sound foolish every time you ask people who are clearly far more educated than you if they're living off of their parents. Maybe you should spend more time trying to support your argument and read the evidence that refutes your claims instead of psychoanalyzing those who are wasting their time trying to educate you.

[Guest]

It is also worth pointing out that the reason factory workers made more money in the 60's is the same reason people back then could make a livable wage driving a bus or delivering milk. The age of automation has affected factory wages tremendously. But you want to pin it all on a "flood" of immigration that wouldn't happen for another quarter century.

Watching this conversation reminds me of how some like to try to blame the implementation of the CRA in 1977 for the abuses in lending and massive collapse of the housing market thirty years later. Because, you know, 'poor folks' and 'immigrants'.

[_EAllusion]

Markk -

You haven't responded to this directly, but it is a point of burning curiosity for me. A variety of economists have been cited expressing the opinion that you have by turns called the product of not having ever been to Southern California, living in your Mom's basement, being out of touch with the real world, not being able to make a basic inference that people willing to work for less depresses wages etc.

Do you think that's true of those economists? That they're a bunch of basement dwelling know-nothings who haven't come to your insights you managed to easily grasp with a few anecdotal observations and introspection? Why?

I'm not saying it is wrong to ever disagree with an expert on anything, but you're taking it a step further and describing a whole gaggle of them as lacking the thinking capacity of an average high schooler. I think that should be spelled out a little bit more.

EA, you simply do not have a understanding of the real world, and what immigration is doing here in so cal and moving to other parts of the country. a piece of paper cannot possible explain that.

I have asked you many time to explain to me how your wages are higher... I showed you how a carpenter wages are lower. The floor is yours.

I asked if you live with your parents for a reason, you really seem to be void of what is going on in the country. Are you married with kids...a home owner? If so I am wrong on that.

Infer whatever you want about me. That wasn't what my observation/question was about. Do you believe the *economists* you are disagreeing with can be explained by noting they are out of touch with the real world, single, do not own a home, etc.?

[_subgenius]

...(snip)... Overall nominal wage decreases do not correspond to massive "flooding" of illegal immigrants.

are you claiming that, over the years noted, monetary policy has been exclusive of immigration policy ?

[_Markk]

You haven't responded to this directly, but it is a point of burning curiosity for me. A variety of economists have been cited expressing the opinion that you have by turns called the product of not having ever been to Southern California, living in your Mom's basement, being out of touch with the real world, not being able to make a basic inference that people willing to work for less depresses wages etc.

Do you think that's true of those economists? That they're a bunch of basement dwelling know-nothings who haven't come to your insights you managed to easily grasp with a few anecdotal observations and introspection? Why?

I'm not saying it is wrong to ever disagree with an expert on anything, but you're taking it a step further and describing a whole gaggle of them as lacking the thinking capacity of an average high schooler. I think that should be spelled out a little bit more.

EAllusion, you simply do not have a understanding of the real world, and what immigration is doing here in so cal and moving to other parts of the country. a piece of paper cannot possible explain that.

I have asked you many time to explain to me how your wages are higher... I showed you how a carpenter wages are lower. The floor is yours.

I asked if you live with your parents for a reason, you really seem to be void of what is going on in the country. Are you married with kids...a home owner? If so I am wrong on that.

Infer whatever you want about me. That wasn't what my observation/question was about. Do you believe the *economists* you are disagreeing with can be explained by noting they are out of touch with the real world, single, do not own a home, etc.?[/quote]

I have no idea why they are wrong...I have no idea what variables and data they use. Studies are different, with different conclusions as I pointed out.

Being that I use real experience and observations. I want you to do the same...which you believe is not necessary. Which would be like doing a science project without observation/application of theory.

I am trying to understand your environment and how that might affect your reasoning. It is relevant...it would compare to a Mormon in South American Mormon, trying to understand Utah Mormonism...you could never understand unless you have experienced it.

[_Kishkumen]

Being that I use real experience and observations.

It's cold where I am, so what's this global warming crap?

I have a job, so what do you mean by "unemployment problem"?

Whatever you ex-Mormons are complaining about never happened in my ward.

That thing you say Mormons believe I have never heard of, and I have been a Mormon all my life.

Yeah, we know ALL ABOUT personal experience.

[_Markk]

Being that I use real experience and observations.

It's cold where I am, so what's this global warming crap?

I have a job, so what do you mean by "unemployment problem"?

Whatever you ex-Mormons are complaining about never happened in my ward.

That thing you say Mormons believe I have never heard of, and I have been a Mormon all my life.

Yeah, we know ALL ABOUT personal experience.

Or you can try to deal with EA's/Doc's and mine ongoing conversation on this topic Kish. EA insists my argument of experience, is of non factor, and his argument of selected links are fact. He even goes so far as to ask me questions like why would we hire an illegal or green card immigrant without a resume and references...which proves my point he does not understand what the market demands or who these folks are. There are reasons why I asked the question I did...I am comparing the work market in around the 10th largest economy in the world, with millions of illegal and green card immigrants, with his experience in Mayberry. There is a difference a huge difference. I work with these immigrants everyday...I have a pretty good general understanding of their lifestyles here and what they will work for. Is this really off the table?

[_Res Ipsa]

Markk, if the question is “what is the overall effect of immigration on the economy,” then your experience is irrelevant. It’s one person’s observations out of millions of person’s observations. It’s just like Kish’s example of arguing it’s cold where you are in response to hundreds of studies showing evidence of increased global temperatures.

Throughout this discussion, you’ve reminded me of the mother who insists that her child developed autism from a shot despite stacks of studies showing that the shots don’t cause autism. She turns her back on actual data and evidence, claiming that she knows her child her child better than any scientist and that all those studies are lies by big pharma.

Your own experience is simply too narrow and too subjective to be relevant to how the economy works on a national scale. Homelessness is a complex issue, with lots of factors playing a role. Blaming a single cause is how we end blowing tons of money without fixing problems.