Zimmerman's Pointless Trial

[_beastie]

I think it was more than a punch in the nose. GZ may have exaggerated the beating, but I think the prosecution is downplaying it. It was probably somewhere between the 2 extremes. It seems all witnesses agree they were on the ground. TM had bruises on his hands, not on a hand, but on both hands. He had no other injuries oher than the fatal gunshot wound. GZ had a broken nose, 2 black eyes, bruised lip, and head injuries. That is more than a single punch to the nose. So then you have to ask if someone grabs you to ask you a question, is an appropriate response to take them to the ground and inflict that kind of damage using both hands? That's what appears to have happened. I think it is a losing argument to say GZ deserved to get beat down. That plays right into the "thug" image that some people are trying to hang on TM.

I just don't think GZ sustained enough wounds to merit assuming that it was a serious beating. Yes, I'm sure TM punched him in the nose, and then they grappled and rolled around on the ground, trying to hit and maybe successfully hitting each other.

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

Beastie,

So it's ok for TM to defend himself by simply being grabbed (SYG)?

It's not ok for GZ to defend himself when someone is on top of him punching the crap out of jim (SYG).

Help me understand your mindset.

- Doc

[_beastie]

Beastie,

So it's ok for TM to defend himself by simply being grabbed (SYG)?

It's not ok for GZ to defend himself when someone is on top of him punching the crap out of jim (SYG).

Help me understand your mindset.

- Doc

"By simply being grabbed" ignores the fact that GZ had been following TM in a suspicious way. I wouldn't advocate violence if someone just grabbed you for some reason, to get your attention or something. But if someone has been following you, and then comes up on you and grabs you in a way meant to detain you, sure, defend yourself.

I never said it wasn't ok for Gz to defend himself once the fight started. I'll ignore "punching the crap" out of him because it's uncertain just how much TM punched GZ, with his minor injuries. But GZ used deadly force when he didn't have to. That's why I think he's guilty of manslaughter. If they just had a fistfight and both walked away alive, this would be a different story.

[_Analytics]

Beastie,

So it's ok for TM to defend himself by simply being grabbed (SYG)?

It's not ok for GZ to defend himself when someone is on top of him punching the crap out of jim (SYG).

Help me understand your mindset.

- Doc

Let's freeze the scene from TM's perspective before he starts to win the fist fight. You are walking through a neighborhood, minding your own business. An angry, creepy guy with a gun who doesn't want you to get away starts to follow you. You start to run and he starts to run after you. You turn around and confront him and ask him what's his problem. He is acting pissed and irrational, and demand you don't leave. Perhaps he pushes you. Perhaps he grabs you. Perhaps he takes a swing at you. Perhaps he pulls his gun on you.

If you are minding your own business and somebody like that pulls a gun on you, what are you choices? Stand there and let him shoot you? Run and let him shoot you in the back? Try to disable him with your speed and fists?

What if you go for the latter option. If you are able to get the upper-hand in a fist fight with the armed man who was stalking you, does that give him the right to shoot you in self defense?

The principles of self-defense and stand-your-ground should be reserved for the people who don't instigate situations. If you pull a gun on somebody and he hits you, you don't get the right to shoot him in self defense.

[_beastie]

Once again: if the truth were adequate for self-defense, why has GZ told so many lies?

[_beastie]

Here's why I think that GZ could have defended himself without resorting to shooting TM.

GZ looked quite fit at that point. He'd been training MMA style in a gym three times a week for nearly a year. I found the testimony of the gym owner literally unbelievable, by the way. Almost laughable. Certainly some people are more naturally athletic than others, but to argue that GZ was barely a 1 in terms of physical ability after nearly a year of three times a week training is unbelievable. GZ outweighed TM by nearly fifty pounds.

TM was a skinny kid. That's evident in his photos.

http://colorlines.com/archives/2013/05/ ... _case.html

I have a hard time taking anyone seriously who claims that the only way GZ could defend himself against a skinny 17 year old was to shoot him.

Some posters on this thread have acted like TM was some body-building hulking monster. They act as if HE were the one doing MMA training three times a week for nearly a year and as if HE outweighed GZ by fifty pounds.

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

Some posters on this thread have acted like TM was some body-building hulking monster.

Who?

- Doc

[_beastie]

Some posters on this thread have acted like TM was some body-building hulking monster.

Who?

- Doc

The posters who act as if there were NO OTHER WAY for GZ to defend himself other than to shoot TM in the heart.

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

Again.

Who?

- Doc

[_beastie]

Again.

Who?

- Doc

You. Or are you saying that GZ could have defended himself against TM by some manner OTHER than shooting him?