Liberals and American Patriotism - WTF is the problem

[_MeDotOrg]

Shame is what keeps this whole thing turning. Shame of not working hard enough, while simultaneously not spending time with family. Shame of our racist past while simultaneously creating an class system that perpetuates racism. We are conditioned to feel ashamed if we don’t have a brand new car or house we can’t afford. After all, the only way to sell someone something is to convince them that they are not good enough without it. What about this growing poor class of society? They were born into a system that emphasizes materialism over everything else. How do they make money? Afford an education? Get off of welfare and social programs? Will they join the military out of high school? Start selling drugs and wind up in prison laboring for pennies on the dollar? Maybe a sports scholarship? Will they work their way up in a UPS factory or at fast food restaurants in a stagnating wage environment where half the jobs will be automated soon anyway?

- Doc

You touch on many things in this post Doc, and it is heartfelt and well-considered.

We live in a society I like to call late-stage capitalism. Capitalism is based upon growth of markets. When everyone with money has food, clothing and shelter, what's next? Consumerism, and the belief that you are what you consume. Advertising is the propaganda arm of consumerism. Advertising creates an environment where narcissistic behavior is encouraged.

For a while when I saw Donald Trump, I thought of making a video of him using the Beatles' I Me Mine as a soundtrack. He is the ultimate consumerist narcissist, a man with no center, who is constantly propelled forward by his need for self-aggrandizement.

So when the President of the United States is a consumerist, with a constant need need for reinforcement outside the self, coupled with a narcissistic personality, gigantic ego and a showman's flair for self-promotion, it's pretty logical that he would want a huge military parade with a lot of hardware. It's the perfect synthesis of Politics, Nationalism and Consumerism.

[_subgenius]

Actually, it seems that your conclusion is at the very core for the definition of patriotism.

Ah. This makes sense now. You conflate self-interest with love of one's country.

- Doc[/quote]
How are they distinct from each other? are there separate identities here?

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

How are they distinct from each other? are there separate identities here?

I don't know how to discuss ethics to you.

- Doc

[_subgenius]

How are they distinct from each other? are there separate identities here?

I don't know how to discuss ethics to you.

- Doc

so it's an ethical thang? so one's self interest is ethically opposed to patriotism? Me identifying as an American somehow (magically) removes self-interest when expressing that identity....love and support for one's country can't possibly coexist with doing "what we had to do to make a life for ourselves"...because, ethics....or rather, because you don't know how to discuss ethics with me.
Got it!

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

so it's an ethical thang? so one's self interest is ethically opposed to patriotism? Me identifying as an American somehow (magically) removes self-interest when expressing that identity....love and support for one's country can't possibly coexist with doing "what we had to do to make a life for ourselves"...because, ethics....or rather, because you don't know how to discuss ethics with me.
Got it!

Well. Patriotism is simply an attachment to one's homeland. So, it follows that your self-interest and my self-interest won't align perfectly and thus our worldview is colored differently. Our sense of patriotism will have different ethical considerations.

Where I think we can probably part ways on our ethical relationship to patriotism is you're implying that your patriotism is based on what your homeland gives you and what you can keep for yourself where my patriotism is probably more altruistic and group oriented.

We both love the state for what it gives us. We just value what is given differently and we have a different approach to our service toward this entity that gives us what we can get out of it. Since your, I guess, culture is one of Conservatism and mine is more Liberal I think our values, and thus our patriotism will differ.

So. The point I'll concede to you is that your version of patriotism is probably very valid to you. "Let's go Shopping!" is a call to arms that makes America great because commerce and economy, at the end of the day, determines our quality of life once our security is established.

- Doc