The war against individual freedoms

[_Themis]

The obvious needs to be pointed out sometimes. Guns do not kill people, people kill people.

Some of the people killing other people do it with guns Amore.

People who are intent on getting a gun find ways despite the many existing gun laws of restrictions.

This is a really really poor argument. It's the usual argument from gun nuts who don't want restrictions of getting guns. It pretends as though every person who uses a gun to do violence has the same intent on getting a gun, but the reality is there are many factors and levels of intent. All these contribute to whether a person will be able to get a gun or not. More strict laws means less will be able to obtain a gun, and more will get caught doing so. Yes it's harder to stop a person who is very smart, connected to those who have guns or can get them a gun, plans well in advance, etc. Reality is most are not that smart, not well connected to those who have guns or can get them guns, don't do much planning or even act out without planning, etc. Better rules will save lives, which we see in other countries.

[_Themis]

Restricting our guns won't make a us police state. It won't even contribute to the US becoming a police state.

Who said it would or is? There are already many gun restrictions. What more, specifically, do you (or those blaming guns) want regarding gun laws that are not already in place?

Markk implied it, and I notice he has left the thread. I guess he doesn't like being asked good questions.

[_Morley]

Restricting our guns won't make a us police state. It won't even contribute to the US becoming a police state.

Who said it would or is?

I was answering this question:

I'll ask you the same question I asked Kish...will taking away weapons from the people lend to a police state?

[_Amore]

Markk implied it, and I notice he has left the thread. I guess he doesn't like being asked good questions.

So you don’t know? Otherwise you’d explain.

It reminds me of everyone fighting over spilt milk - you’re like, “No more milk - ever again!!!”

Depending on which year & type of gun, a stat shows that knives killed more than guns. Hm... so should we blame the knives? No more knives! It must be the knife’s fault! See, it’s obviously illogical to blame an inanimate object for action, yet that mentality is being bought by many gullible people who never learned to resist herd mentality. I don’t mean to be mean - though I realize it’s blunt. They say about 70% of people are easily persuaded by group thought, so you’re not alone.

But what’s sad is while we’re busy arguing if the world is flat, so to speak, more killings happen. People are complex, physiologically, socially, psychologically etc. It’s ignor-ant to pretend one particular weapon is to blame for the ugly side of humanity. Think about war camps - there are many ways to hurt other human beings. You take one weapon away - another will take its place - until you get to the root of the problem... 2 we know of so far: mental illness/prescription drugs & fatherlessness. But those benefiting from pharmaceuticals & feminists and homosexual fanatics don’t want to admit the side-effects of meds and the importance of fathers - so those in power lead the unthinking masses to ignore the real causes and seek to blame other diversions. They care more about themselves than really solving these problems.

But people are beginning to wake up to the fact that what others do can and often does affect them, so we need to pay attention and think things through to get to the real solutions.

[_Some Schmo]

I bet you watch a lot of Fox News.

I bet you don’t even know what logical fallacies are.

I bet you'd lose that bet and I'd win mine.

[_Morley]

The obvious needs to be pointed out sometimes. Guns do not kill people, people kill people.

You're right, people kill people. But people with guns kill more people than people without guns.

To paraphrase the old saying, "If my child jabs someone with a sharp stick, I don't blame the stick. But I still take away the stick."

[_EAllusion]

EA,

I was just giving a few of the reasons why the 2nd Amendment exists. It was added as a practicality for self-defense in a wilderness environment, to raise a militia against foreign aggressors, and as a deterrent to tyranny. It was written for a period of time that couldn't possibly foresee what 2018 America would be or how the amendment itself would be interpreted.

I'm not really sure what you're disagreeing with other than pulling your usual shtick of being a contrarian because you want to feel smart.

- Doc

You are arguing for repealing part of the bill of rights in order to ban gun ownership. This is a radically unpopular position. And one of the reasons why it is so hard to get movement on gun contol is opponents are fearful that this is the real intent of modest compromises. Therefore giving up any Overton window shift is a loss because no stable compromise can be reached.

Yet I am the contrarian here. Sure. My point was just that what you are listing, in bold, as a basis for the right wasn't really what it was about. In terms of the amendment being outdated, one of its purposes is. The other remains as valid now as when it was passed. You may disagree with the logic, but that logic stands or falls throughout the history of the text.

[_Themis]

Depending on which year & type of gun, a stat shows that knives killed more than guns. Hm... so should we blame the knives? No more knives! It must be the knife’s fault! See, it’s obviously illogical to blame an inanimate object for action, yet that mentality is being bought by many gullible people who never learned to resist herd mentality.

I never blamed the knife or gun. I didn't even imply it Amore.

You take one weapon away - another will take its place

If you understand, that is the point. Sure there are other issues and society is looking at them, but the weapons we use are also important. People who act out violently usually go for the deadlier weapons while doing so. Guns are more effective at killing then knives. Some guns are more effective at killing then other guns. Higher capacity clips/magazines are more effective at killing people then low capacity ones. Hand grenades are an effective weapon at killing people, but they are banned and we hardly see any of them being used. Same with fully automatic weapons. This tells us banning a weapon is an effective way to keep them out of the hands of most people who will act out violently against others.

I would rather someone come at me with a wiffle bat then a baseball bat.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bJVN4m7z2Yc

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

EAllusion,

I was just giving a few of the reasons why the 2nd Amendment exists. It was added as a practicality for self-defense in a wilderness environment, to raise a militia against foreign aggressors, and as a deterrent to tyranny. It was written for a period of time that couldn't possibly foresee what 2018 America would be or how the amendment itself would be interpreted.

I'm not really sure what you're disagreeing with other than pulling your usual shtick of being a contrarian because you want to feel smart.

- Doc

You are arguing for repealing part of the bill of rights in order to ban gun ownership.

I don't recall where I mentioned it, but I'd also be in favor of tightly regulating gun ownership, basically treating them like cars with registration, training, test taking, and an annual 'tag' for each weapon to help offset the cost of Americans murdering one another. People, to include criminals, who use an unlicensed weapon would be cited or charged, depending on the offense.

I think there's room for compromise, but what's happening right now and what has been tolerated in the past is ridiculous and costly.

- Doc

[_Kevin Graham]

The Second Amendment originally referred entirely and exclusively to the right of states to organize militias. It actually wasn't until 2008 that the Supreme Court capitulated to the NRA and the gun culture changed the interpretation to refer to individual rights. For a good discussion of why it originally referred only to state-controlled militias, see here:

http://www.english.illinois.edu/-people ... s/guns.pdf

The Supreme Court decision is here: http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/07pdf/07-290.pdf