Left vs. Right on Science & Honesty

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_canpakes
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Re: Left vs. Right on Science & Honesty

Post by _canpakes »

Water Dog wrote:
Morley wrote:Trump famously said it during the Republican Primary Debates. He was pretty clear. Nothing was out of context.

He's been saying it for years.


Seeing as how the links you cited don't actually quote Trump, I thought I'd look up the debate. It appears to me like you and those articles are misrepresenting his position. He explicitly says he's in favor of vaccines but would like to see it spread out in smaller doses. Interestingly Rand Paul seemed to agree with him. Since then I cannot tell that he's said anything which even taken out of context could be construed as anti-vaxxer.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ye7CtNEUm8M


Trump is much more explicit in his tweet at the link below. What message do you think this sent?

https://mobile.Twitter.com/realdonaldtr ... 52?lang=en

”Healthy young child goes to doctor, gets pumped with massive shot of many vaccines, doesn't feel good and changes - AUTISM. Many such cases!”
_Themis
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Re: Left vs. Right on Science & Honesty

Post by _Themis »

Water Dog wrote: The left politicizes, sensationalizes, emotionalizes, etc.


It's called politics. Both sides do it with everything they can to win.
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_canpakes
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Re: Left vs. Right on Science & Honesty

Post by _canpakes »

Water Dog wrote:The left politicizes, sensationalizes, emotionalizes, etc. Even in cases where the left may arguably be "more right," it will politicize a subject to a point that it becomes clouded in misinformation and malicious intent.

...Global warming is a classic example. There is some legitimacy and truth to the science, hidden many layers deep, well below the fake politicized narrative. To the left, climate science is but a useful tool to advance an authoritarian agenda.

The second paragraph is exactly an example of ‘the right’ doing what you claim ‘the left’ does in your first paragraph.

Not sure if you just can’t see that, or if you’re trying for your usual psy-ops propaganda BS bit again.
_DoubtingThomas
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Re: Left vs. Right on Science & Honesty

Post by _DoubtingThomas »

Water Dog wrote:There is some legitimacy and truth to the science, hidden many layers deep, well below the fake politicized narrative.


Here is what the science

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... 8217302857

Are you capable of reading and understanding a research study? Okay prove it!
_moksha
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Re: Left vs. Right on Science & Honesty

Post by _moksha »

subgenius wrote:The limitation for the modern cocnept... does not limit its application through history.

So like someone could be wrong about bodily humors or climate change in 2018 but still right in 1651?
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_Morley
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Re: Left vs. Right on Science & Honesty

Post by _Morley »

Water Dog wrote:
Morley wrote:Trump famously said it during the Republican Primary Debates. He was pretty clear. Nothing was out of context.

He's been saying it for years.


Seeing as how the links you cited don't actually quote Trump, I thought I'd look up the debate. It appears to me like you and those articles are misrepresenting his position. He explicitly says he's in favor of vaccines but would like to see it spread out in smaller doses. Interestingly Rand Paul seemed to agree with him. Since then I cannot tell that he's said anything which even taken out of context could be construed as anti-vaxxer.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ye7CtNEUm8M



canpakes wrote:
Trump is much more explicit in his tweet at the link below. What message do you think this sent?

https://mobile.Twitter.com/realdonaldtr ... 52?lang=en

”Healthy young child goes to doctor, gets pumped with massive shot of many vaccines, doesn't feel good and changes - AUTISM. Many such cases!”


Thanks, Canpakes. You beat me to it.


Waiting for Waterdog's response.
_DarkHelmet
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Re: Left vs. Right on Science & Honesty

Post by _DarkHelmet »

Analytics wrote:Personally, I'm disgusted with the two-party system and don't belong to either party. I form my own subtle views on an issue-by-issue basis, and feel no need to identify with one of two groups and let that affiliation decide my opinion on everything.

When considering who is generally intelligent and "pro-science", I think there are two general types. If you are the intellectual type who thinks for the sake of thinking and spends time contemplating where humanity is going to be in 100 years, 1,000 years, and 10,000 years, you are probably going to lean left. But if you are the here-and-now business type with a much shorter horizon, you are going to want to minimize interference in your business and minimize the taxes you pay. That type of person will of course lean right.

If those groups are the real intellectual drivers behind the political parties, then it makes sense that since both types of people are small minorities, they need to form alliances with larger groups. The left has formed alliances with union workers, minorities, women groups, pseudo-intellectuals, new agers, and neo-hippies. The right has formed alliances with gun nuts, evangelical Christians, Pentecostals, Mormons, militias, and neo-Nazis.

Both sides have sold out to the military-industrial complex.

That's the way I see it, at least.

Regarding vaccines, it's worth pointing out that Donald Henderson, Bill Gates, and Warren Buffett are all democrats (or in the case of Bill Gates at least, clearly leans left).


Excellent post. Unfortunately it was too confusing for some on this thread. There are over 300 million people in this country, and apparently we all fall into one of 2 camps - liberal or conservative. As you point out, there is a lot more nuance to people, but when Schmo comes in and agrees with you and explains how he has both liberal and conservative opinions on different issues, he is accused of falsely claiming to be a conservative. WTF? It's so frustrating trying to explain that individuals don't fit neatly into one ideology or the other. The odds of one free thinking human being actually agreeing with another free thinking human being on every single issue is very low. In fact, the people that do are boot licking sheep of one party or another.
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_Res Ipsa
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Re: Left vs. Right on Science & Honesty

Post by _Res Ipsa »

Water Dog wrote:
Res Ipsa wrote:Part of the problem with the opening post is that it conflates several different things into what it means to be anti-science.


Image

True, I am conflating. It has to do with how those on the left treat information, whether it has to do with accusations of sexual misconduct or climate science. The left politicizes, sensationalizes, emotionalizes, etc. Even in cases where the left may arguably be "more right," it will politicize a subject to a point that it becomes clouded in misinformation and malicious intent. Like the Kavanaugh situation, it then ceases to be about the original subject, like Kavanaugh's fitness, and instead becomes a referendum on something else entirely. Global warming is a classic example. There is some legitimacy and truth to the science, hidden many layers deep, well below the fake politicized narrative. To the left, climate science is but a useful tool to advance an authoritarian agenda. The world's first "carbon billionaire" Al Gore has done more damage to the credibility of the science than anyone.


Nonsense, WD. The right politicized the crap out of climate science right out of the gate. The science is pretty straightforward and based on well-established physics. The only thing it’s hidden under is piles of pure crap thrown around by anti-government, global conspiracy mongeribg types. The only fake politicized narrative is the one you folks on the right try to push about the purpose of the science being to promote some global agenda to destroy freedom.

You are such a walking bundle of projection that it’s stunning to read. Every single thing you accuse the left of in this post, is what the right has done in spades. You are mired so deep in pure partisanship that you can’t think straight.

The Al Gore comment is the 100% tell. Al Gore communicated the problem. Had we taken the science he presented seriously, we could have more gradually taken the steps needed to eliminate net CO2 emissions without a significant shock to the economy. Instead, the right did what it always does when presented with facts it doesn’t like — it went on the personal attack. Al Gore did zero to damage the credibility of climate science. The right set out to destroy Al Gore. Just like it did with Janes Hansen. Just like it did with Michael Mann. You guys on the right didn’t like what the science said, so you went in on an all out blitz to destroy the science and the scientists.

You are anti-science, Dog. You may fool yourself, but you don’t fool us. You’re so afraid that the libs are up to something that you turn your back on the science that you give lip service to. For all the mockery you make of people who put feelings first, you’ve put your feelings ahead of the science.

You are exactly why folks identify anti-science with the right.
​“The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists.”

― Hannah Arendt, The Origins of Totalitarianism, 1951
_subgenius
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Re: Left vs. Right on Science & Honesty

Post by _subgenius »

From 5 years ago:
Don’t look now, but maybe a scientific consensus exists concerning global warming after all. Only 36 percent of geoscientists and engineers believe that humans are creating a global warming crisis, according to a survey reported in the peer-reviewed Organization Studies. By contrast, a strong majority of the 1,077 respondents believe that nature is the primary cause of recent global warming and/or that future global warming will not be a very serious problem.

The survey results show geoscientists (also known as earth scientists) and engineers hold similar views as meteorologists. Two recent surveys of meteorologists (summarized here and here) revealed similar skepticism of alarmist global warming claims.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jamestaylo ... ng-crisis/

It seems like the majority of scientists are skeptical of IPCC modeling etc. I find Res Ispa's charge of climate change being "politicized" a bit ironic because it seems that Res's position is the position guilty of just that....perhaps.

Regardless of political affiliation, people are more likely to believe facts about climate change when they come from Republicans speaking against what has become a partisan interest in this country, says a new University of Connecticut study.
...
"Citing Republican elites who endorse the scientific consensus on climate change may be the most effective way to persuade citizens that climate change is a real and important problem".


https://phys.org/news/2018-04-republica ... e.html#jCp

The idea that all Republicans think climate change isn't happening is a myth. A new study published in Springer's journal Climatic Change finds substantial differences in the climate change views of both Republicans and Democrats across different states and congressional districts.
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_Some Schmo
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Re: Left vs. Right on Science & Honesty

Post by _Some Schmo »

I'm seriously thinking about going vegetarian, or at least, cutting out beef and... (*sniff*) pork. I don't eat much of either now, but I still enjoy it occasionally. Apparently, you can do more for emissions by not eating beef than by getting a hybrid, because of all the cow farts and the agriculture that goes into keeping and feeding cattle (I haven't verified that).

My daughter wants me to (she's been meatless for a while now), and she's pretty pissed off at adults and especially science deniers (GOP) after the IPCC report. I can't really blame her, and I guess I feel like my generation owes hers.

Anyway, it's not like I'd die without meat. The planet seems more important.
God belief is for people who don't want to live life on the universe's terms.
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