David Duke backs Ilahn Omar

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_canpakes
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Re: David Duke backs Ilahn Omar

Post by _canpakes »

canpakes wrote:
Markk wrote:No we should try to stop all Russian meddling. But we need to be honest of what it is and when it started. This was all going on under someone else's watch, someone we have on tape telling a Putin assistant that once he is elected he will have more flexibility to make deals with him.

Should we spend equal time on Obama and Hillary in these regards?

Since you're now introducing something that has arguably nothing to do with this particular topic, can you continue and take this further, and tell me how you believe this 'more flexibility' comment by Obama affected elections, policy, or whatever it is about this that you believe warrants a closer look, and why? I believe that subs tried this same odd distraction in another thread but was left gobsmackingly slackjawed at trying to explain anything further. That's not surprising, but I have more faith that you might be able to take this beyond a diversionary but hollow conservative talking point and flesh things out a bit. Give it a go?

Markk, no further thoughts on this?
_Themis
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Re: David Duke backs Ilahn Omar

Post by _Themis »

canpakes wrote:Markk, no further thoughts on this?


I notice Markk goes quiet when you start to ask for details and some evidence instead of just opinion. Why have none of the past president's all the way back to the end of WW2 never had this kind of investigation about Russian meddling in elections?
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_Markk
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Re: David Duke backs Ilahn Omar

Post by _Markk »

Themis wrote:
canpakes wrote:Markk, no further thoughts on this?


I notice Markk goes quiet when you start to ask for details and some evidence instead of just opinion. Why have none of the past president's all the way back to the end of WW2 never had this kind of investigation about Russian meddling in elections?


No social media for one thing. In the past there were no leaks like today also becaus eof the ease to link something with a simple tweet. And we supported the office with much more respect Themis. Our parents had a integrity far beyond ours.

I wrote on this here a few years ago when this started, I will see if I can find it in that I believe I have several links...but here is a link I grabbed real quick, which I haven't had time to read through all the way.

https://amgreatness.com/2018/06/23/russ ... red-until/

You are conflating meddling with investigation...which is skirting the issue and a strawman on the history of our two countries going at it.

There was never and investigation like Bill Clinton's on presidential sexual misgivings, basically for the same reasons. Could you imagine if we had social media like today during the Monica affair?
Don't take life so seriously in that " sooner or later we are just old men in funny clothes" "Tom 'T-Bone' Wolk"
_Themis
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Re: David Duke backs Ilahn Omar

Post by _Themis »

Markk wrote:No social media for one thing. In the past there were no leaks like today also becaus eof the ease to link something with a simple tweet. And we supported the office with much more respect Themis. Our parents had a integrity far beyond ours.

I wrote on this here a few years ago when this started, I will see if I can find it in that I believe I have several links...but here is a link I grabbed real quick, which I haven't had time to read through all the way.

https://amgreatness.com/2018/06/23/russ ... red-until/

You are conflating meddling with investigation...which is skirting the issue and a strawman on the history of our two countries going at it.

There was never and investigation like Bill Clinton's on presidential sexual misgivings, basically for the same reasons. Could you imagine if we had social media like today during the Monica affair?


Social media was very active during the Obama years yet you don't see anywhere near the same leaks. Can you show how social media is suppose to cause a big increase in leaks? Media's job in protecting freedom and democracy is to uncover things our politicians are doing that they shouldn't be doing, which is why they always try to find dirt on politicians. Leaks mostly happen because someone on the inside feels it should be leaked, so it seems a lot in Trump's white house feel certain information needs to be leaked. Hell you currently have a serving General who is openly disagreeing with the president. Don't remember that happening before.

While I like to see what republicans or democrats say say about one of their own, I have seen enough of Trump long before he decided to run for president to know he would be the worst president, so it doesn't come as a surprise so many notable republicans have come out against him that we have never seen before. I have given you some examples of why Trump is so bad, but you have yet to bring up what would make him even a decent president.

by the way The article is not a good comparison to the meddling done in the last election as well as evidence suggesting Trump's campaign colluded with the Russian's to help them win. This is why we have such an important investigation going on brought to you by republicans, not the democrats who didn't have the power to do so.
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_Markk
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Re: David Duke backs Ilahn Omar

Post by _Markk »

Themis wrote:
Social media was very active during the Obama years yet you don't see anywhere near the same leaks. Can you show how social media is suppose to cause a big increase in leaks? Media's job in protecting freedom and democracy is to uncover things our politicians are doing that they shouldn't be doing, which is why they always try to find dirt on politicians. Leaks mostly happen because someone on the inside feels it should be leaked, so it seems a lot in Trump's white house feel certain information needs to be leaked. Hell you currently have a serving General who is openly disagreeing with the president. Don't remember that happening before.

While I like to see what republicans or democrats say say about one of their own, I have seen enough of Trump long before he decided to run for president to know he would be the worst president, so it doesn't come as a surprise so many notable republicans have come out against him that we have never seen before. I have given you some examples of why Trump is so bad, but you have yet to bring up what would make him even a decent president.

by the way The article is not a good comparison to the meddling done in the last election as well as evidence suggesting Trump's campaign colluded with the Russian's to help them win. This is why we have such an important investigation going on brought to you by republicans, not the democrats who didn't have the power to do so.


LOL..well I guess that shows who is doing the leaking.

Please address the history of Russian meddling...address why Obama failed so miserably to understand Russia is and always has been a threat in espionage in regards to elections, as we are with theirs.

This whole thing for you is about Trump colluding with Russia...where is the proof or evidence?

There is absolutely no evidence that Trump colluded with Russia, and as the investigation is winding down, it is becoming very clear that there was no collusion at all.

It's "funny" that NBC came out with a article yesterday that reads that "you" may be disappointed by the Muller decision...

Are you going to be disappointed to find out our president is not a spy? This article is from a major news service, and you wonder why there was not leaks in Obama's White House? If Mueller's decision does not indict Trump, are you going to bummed out?


https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/justic ... rt-n971601

Also do you think a "important " investigation should now go the other direction, and investigate those that may have been trying to get Trump removed? Or investigate Hillary's mess with the same vigor, wouldn't this be equally important?

Personally I am tired of investigations and I am okay moving on once Mueller is done.
Don't take life so seriously in that " sooner or later we are just old men in funny clothes" "Tom 'T-Bone' Wolk"
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Re: David Duke backs Ilahn Omar

Post by _Themis »

Markk wrote:LOL..well I guess that shows who is doing the leaking.


The point was not about who is doing the leaking, but that we see a lot of leaks compared to other administrations.

Please address the history of Russian meddling...address why Obama failed so miserably to understand Russia is and always has been a threat in espionage in regards to elections, as we are with theirs.


The article doesn't bring up anything comparable to the last election. No one is not arguing they have not been trying to meddle in democratic elections. It's just that they got very involved and were successful.

This whole thing for you is about Trump colluding with Russia...where is the proof or evidence?


We see lots of evidence that Trump's campaign was colluding wit the Russians. Why do you think there have been many indicments and guilty pleas with these investigations. If nothing wrong was going on why so many lies?

There is absolutely no evidence that Trump colluded with Russia, and as the investigation is winding down, it is becoming very clear that there was no collusion at all.


Who says the investigation is winding down for lack of evidence? Reality is they will finish their investigation before releasing their results unless it keep hidden. You really think they don't have a lot of evidence and information the rest of us don't have?

Are you going to be disappointed to find out our president is not a spy? This article is from a major news service, and you wonder why there was not leaks in Obama's White House? If Mueller's decision does not indict Trump, are you going to bummed out?


I don't recall saying he was a spy. The minimum is he is a useful idiot for Putin. Someone who is a clear Moron and someone they can influence. Influencing him in certain ways in the past may have made him an ideal candidate for Putin. Trump has already been a dream come true for Putin, and he will continue to be as long as Trump is President. Are you not a little concerned he is doing so much of what Putin wants and going against what so many experts say The US should be doing, many of whom are conservatives?
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_Res Ipsa
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Re: David Duke backs Ilahn Omar

Post by _Res Ipsa »

ajax18 wrote:
Former KKK leader David Duke backed Rep. Ilhan Omar (D-MN)’s antisemitic statement Sunday that the U.S. Congress supports Israel because its members had been paid to do so.
He tweeted on Monday:

So, let us get this straight. It is “Anti-Semitism” to point out that the most powerful political moneybags in American politics are Zionists who put another nation’s interest (israel’s) over that of America ??????

Omar is openly anti-Zionist, opposing Israel’s existence as a Jewish state.
Duke regularly frames American politics — particularly its foreign policy towards Israel and the broader Middle East and North Africa — as procured by Jewish interests at the expense of America’s national interest.

Duke broadly aligns himself with the “Palestinian” national movement, framing Israel as a state born in sin that “commits ethnic cleansing” against Levantine Arabs.
Despite House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-CA) calling on Omar to apologize for “deeply offensive” and “hurtful comments,” she made no mention of removing the Minnesota congresswoman from committee assignments.

In 2016, then-presidential candidate Donald Trump repeatedly condemned David Duke despite attempts by CNN’s Jake Tapper to link him with the former Ku Klux Klan grand wizard.
Omar subsequently offered an apology for her tweets, while still describing AIPAC as “problematic.”


https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2019 ... lhan-omar/

I never agreed with Dr. Duke's views on Israel. Where do the members of the far left on this board come down on this issue? And do you realize that you're on the same side as David Duke? Strange bedfellows indeed.


I was disappointed, but not surprised, by the reaction of the democratic leadership. Criticism of a lobbying group for trying to buy congresscritters should never be out of bounds. The fact that some of the leading critics on the other side of the aisle did use anti Semitic tropes in the 2018 campaign (have we all forgotten the synagogue shooting) shows this is all political kabuki. Our politicians should be able to criticize AIPAC and the government of Israel without being branded with a swastika.
​“The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists.”

― Hannah Arendt, The Origins of Totalitarianism, 1951
_honorentheos
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Re: David Duke backs Ilahn Omar

Post by _honorentheos »

Markk wrote:I agree with what you are saying for the most part, what I disagree with, if I am understand your question correctly is that I somehow "...why you feel that doing this is more important than establishing principles you, as an individual, adhere to and hold members of all parties to independent of partisan politics?"

My question is another way of asking why you think the atmosphere in modern politics prevents you, Markk, from choosing principle over partisanship?

I believe we should be able to sift through the garbage and accept what is good and bad about a political figure, which I think I have done that with Trump over and over again here, in a pragmatist-ic context. In other words he can be a very un-presidential egotistical baby, yet he is doing some very good things for our country. Would you agree? Why, why not?

There are a couple of areas where I think we'll need to see how they play out to rightly judge Trump that could turn out to be net positives for the US as well as the world largely. Those include the potential for real breakthroughs with North Korea that probably wouldn't be possible with any other US presidential candidate we've seen in the last thirty years and the Kim's still in power. So much of US policy seems to have included power shifts in NK being necessary for change. Maybe, just maybe, Trump and Kim will do a strange dance the ultimate results in a denuclearized Korean peninsula. That would be a major positive and maybe we'll drunken style kung fu our way to something I did not think possible. I've been very vocal on the board in viewing Trump's thin skin and blustering moving the potential he would use nuclear weapons scarily more probable - and still view this as a problem with Trump - he and Kim are so unpredictable that a positive outcome seems possible. If that ends up being how it plays out, kudos to him.

Maybe, just maybe, his trade war with China will help change a few things for the better, while I'm sure there will also be long term negatives. I suspect this one will be a mixed bag.

But in other places people want to give him credit, I tend to be very skeptical it will play out well such as in regards to the economy. I've mentioned elsewhere that I share the view of many economists that Trump is behaving like a predatory venture capitalist with the US economy. He's loading us up with debt to make the economy burn unsustainably hot while doing long-term damage. He managed to interfere with the one thing I thought might have been a positive outcome when Republicans took full control in 2016. That being, I had thought, "At least they'll swing the pendulum of public spending the opposite direction so the national debt load comes down." I don't know how else to say it other than I view what many see as his biggest victory as his setting a ticking time bomb off under all of us that he will walk away from in 2020...and probably blame Democrats for even thought it takes only the most basic understanding of macroeconomics to see what's going on if one steps back and looks past the immediate.

I don't like how he treats our allies, or how he blatantly is cowed by Putin. Maybe even though he is playing the heel on the world stage, the outcome overall will be something positive though I'm not sure what that will look like. Is a more isolated, self-contained and less anglo EU going to be bad, good or indifferent in the course of world history? Don't know.

Anyway, I suspect there are may places where we are too close to justly judge but others where we are choosing to not step back and assess where the results are obvious, preventable, and more than just Trump's fault. That said, there aren't many places I think he's likely to have proved to be good for the US.

And I would love to hear your definition of what a "far left person is"...Are you saying Kevin G. would not be considered far left, and Ajax far right? I would disagree all the way to my grave on that one.

I think you are confusing passion and extreme allegiance with ideology. Being "far left" is not a comment about how intensely a person adheres to their ideological views. It's a comment about what they believe is the best form of social order. And to be on the far left side of the spectrum means a person is essentially a legitimate, hardcore communist. Stalinist state-level communism is in the category but still slightly right of being a true communist who believes government really shouldn't exist. It's easy for people to make statements that are pro-democracy that are exactly the same as communism. So that can be a bit weird in US politics. Does Kevin Graham believe the US government should be dissolved and people govern themselves in a true, collectivist manner? I haven't seen that in his posts.

Now, the far right is the opposite of this view of total, collectivist non-hierarchical social ordering. It's all about hierarchies and authorities. The far right is essentially defined by viewing the ideal social order as one with a authoritarian leader, and stratification in society. Does that sound like something Ajax is for? I guess you don't think so. I think ajax says things that are very much in line with the far right, ideologically speaking. But I also think he'd feel uncomfortable with it being laid out naked in front of him and his taking ownership of it. He wavers in his views between a sort of anti-government sentiment that isn't really far right. It's...confused.

I think folks like you and Ceeboo are in a weird place on the spectrum which plays into being susceptible to seeing democrats as being far left. It comes from having a religious basis for your views that you use to paint society with that is a mix of authoritarianism when it comes to moral views and anti-cultural liberalism on the hand, and a form of collectivist views when it comes to those who you see as fellows. And examining the nature of that boundary is a bit like try to confirm both the position and momentum of an electron: focusing on one side puts the other into a realm of unknowability that muddies the discussion if one tries to bounce back and forth arguing specifics.

Most of the posters on the board are clustered around middle third of the spectrum and hold positions to the left or right depending on the issue. subbie appears to be an anarchist with no ideological view he is willing to honor, but he's the exception there.
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_honorentheos
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Re: David Duke backs Ilahn Omar

Post by _honorentheos »

Res Ipsa wrote:I was disappointed, but not surprised, by the reaction of the democratic leadership. Criticism of a lobbying group for trying to buy congresscritters should never be out of bounds. The fact that some of the leading critics on the other side of the aisle did use anti Semitic tropes in the 2018 campaign (have we all forgotten the synagogue shooting) shows this is all political kabuki. Our politicians should be able to criticize AIPAC and the government of Israel without being branded with a swastika.

I disagree that Rep. Omar's statements reflect a political complaint towards a particular lobby's influence in the same vein as arguing the NRA's influence is bad for America. I also think the apology she provided was a net positive in moving the discussion in the direction you rightly argue shouldn't be out of bounds.

Her statement was essentially a collection of tweets arguing US politicians were being paid to be pro-Israel by AIPAC. Maybe I have a weird idea of what criticism looks like but that isn't it, in my opinion. That's something else.

The House Democrat Leadership's statement:

"Legitimate criticism of Israel's policies is protected by the values of free speech and democratic debate that the United States and Israel share. But Congresswoman Omar's use of anti-Semitic tropes and prejudicial accusations about Israel's supporters is deeply offensive. We condemn these remarks and we call upon Congresswoman Omar to immediately apologize for these hurtful comments."

Her apology:

"Anti-Semitism is real and I am grateful for Jewish allies and colleagues who are educating me on the painful history of anti-Semitic tropes," Omar said. "My intention is never to offend my constituents or Jewish Americans as a whole. We have to always be willing to step back and think through criticism, just as I expect people to hear me when others attack me for my identity. This is why I unequivocally apologize."

"At the same time, I reaffirm the problematic role of lobbyists in our politics, whether it be AIPAC, the NRA or the fossil fuel industry. It's gone on too long and we must be willing to address it."

Should we feel this adjustment was a net negative for free speech? I don't.
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_ajax18
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Re: David Duke backs Ilahn Omar

Post by _ajax18 »

Social media was very active during the Obama years yet you don't see anywhere near the same leaks. Can you show how social media is suppose to cause a big increase in leaks? Media's job in protecting freedom and democracy is to uncover things our politicians are doing that they shouldn't be doing


Because the media is a partisan Democrat institution perhaps? The leaks come because of loyal Democrats serving in the Deep State trying to reverse the results of the 2016 election. How can you not see this?
And when the confederates saw Jackson standing fearless as a stone wall the army of Northern Virginia took courage and drove the federal army off their land.
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