Zimmerman's Pointless Trial

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

Again.

Who?

- Doc

You. Or are you saying that GZ could have defended himself against TM by some manner OTHER than shooting him?

When did I assert TM was a body building Hulk?

- Doc

[_honorentheos]

The principles of self-defense and stand-your-ground should be reserved for the people who don't instigate situations.

This.

[_beastie]

When did I assert TM was a body building Hulk?

- Doc

Of course I was using hyperbole with body building Hulk, but you have insinuated that GZ was physically unable to stand up to the powerhouse of TM. But perhaps I've misunderstood you. Do you believe GZ could have defended himself against TM by some manner OTHER than shooting him?

[_DarkHelmet]

When did I assert TM was a body building Hulk?

- Doc

Of course I was using hyperbole with body building Hulk, but you have insinuated that GZ was physically unable to stand up to the powerhouse of TM. But perhaps I've misunderstood you. Do you believe GZ could have defended himself against TM by some manner OTHER than shooting him?

But this is where the reasonable doubt comes in. They weren't put in a ring with referees who could stop the fight if someone got hurt. If GZ wasn't expecting to get punched, TM could have gotten the upper hand. GZ said he was sucker punched. If we go by your theory that GZ grabbed TM to get his attention and TM turned and punched GZ, maybe that is the punch that broke his nose. Have you ever been punched in the nose hard enough to break it? Perhaps this caused GZ to fall down and hit the back of his head. At this point, who is in better shape to continue the fight? If you've ever seen an MMA or boxing match, when one fighter gets a good shot in they have a huge advantage for several seconds because their opponent is hurt, dazed, and confused. Their opponent will usually cover up trying to regain their senses and hope they get through the round so they can go to their corner and recover. That's why fighters move in for the knockout after they get in a good shot because they know their opponent is in no shape to be punching back. You admit TM punched GZ in the nose hard enough to break it. That immediately diminishes GZ's fighting ability allowing TM to move in for the knockout, but in this case there would be no bell to end the round and no referee to stop the fight.

[_beastie]

But this is where the reasonable doubt comes in. They weren't put in a ring with referees who could stop the fight if someone got hurt. If GZ wasn't expecting to get punched, TM could have gotten the upper hand. GZ said he was sucker punched. If we go by your theory that GZ grabbed TM to get his attention and TM turned and punched GZ, maybe that is the punch that broke his nose. Have you ever been punched in the nose hard enough to break it? Perhaps this caused GZ to fall down and hit the back of his head. At this point, who is in better shape to continue the fight? If you've ever seen an MMA or boxing match, when one fighter gets a good shot in they have a huge advantage for several seconds because their opponent is hurt, dazed, and confused. Their opponent will usually cover up trying to regain their senses and hope they get through the round so they can go to their corner and recover. That's why fighters move in for the knockout after they get in a good shot because they know their opponent is in no shape to be punching back. You admit TM punched GZ in the nose hard enough to break it. That immediately diminishes GZ's fighting ability allowing TM to move in for the knockout, but in this case there would be no bell to end the round and no referee to stop the fight.

My impression is that it isn't even certain his nose was broken. If it was, it was reset by the time the doctor examined him.

GZ had been training three times a week in a MMA gym for nearly a year. He outweighed TM by fifty pounds. If he got his arms free enough to get his gun from behind his back, then he could have pushed TM off of him as well. He could have pushed him off, stood and pulled his gun and stopped TM without killing him.

People usually walk away from fistfights.

[_EAllusion]

It's become impossible to be aware of the news and not aware of the minute details of this trial, so for what it is worth, I would vote to convict Zimmerman of a manslaughter charge, but not murder. I think some of the details are sufficiently murky that there is reasonable doubt of the criteria needed to be out and out murder.

I am sympathetic to some skepticism in what initially looked like could become a media-fueled witch hunt of Zimmerman, but I think the facts of the case clearly demonstrate Zimmerman acted unlawfully to create the circumstances that caused Martin's death.

I don't think everyone appreciates the extent to which African-Americans are profiled and live under a quasi-police state in huge swathes of the United States and how this reality has created a great deal of resentment that can be projected into this case. Zimmerman regarded Martin - an innocent teenager getting some skittles - as suspicious and worthy of following. There is no indication whatsoever Martin was doing anything suspicious and its hard to imagine how racial stereotyping of Martin's look and cohort did not play a role in that judgment.

While I am sympathetic to some reasoned skepticism of convicting Zimmerman, I am absolutely appalled by the extent to which outright racist reasoning has informed right-wing media commentary on this trial, even in sources that are mainstream by conservative media standards. That is stoking the fires of racial resentment. That doesn't justify any violent response if Zimmerman is acquitted, but it certainly is contributing to a tense atmosphere surrounding the verdict.

[_Droopy]

I don't think everyone appreciates the extent to which African-Americans are profiled and live under a quasi-police state in huge swathes of the United States

This, quite frankly, disqualifies you from any further consideration as a serious thinker on political, social, and cultural subjects. If Manning Marable, Charles Ogletree, and Micheal Eric Dyson are libertarians, then I suppose E is a libertarian.

I think perhaps that from now on I'm just going to start calling E "Spike"

Spike E.

Hey, it even kinda sounds like a thug culture moniker, kind of like P Diddy.

Def Delusion. Now that has possibilities...

[_EAllusion]

Def Delusion. Now that has possibilities...

Feel free to comment on this thread Droopy. Explain how profiling isn't going on. I suppose maps, like Science and Nature, are all part of the vast leftist conspiracy.

[_Droopy]

Def Delusion. Now that has possibilities...

Feel free to comment on this thread Droopy. Explain how profiling isn't going on. I suppose maps, like Science and Nature, are all part of the vast leftist conspiracy.

There's another name for what has come to be called in pc-speak, "racial profiling," and that's simply "good police work" in certain neighborhoods in certain areas or regions of certain cities or municipalities. This discussion is going to go well over Spike's head, so I'll save it for another day as I have some other things to do today.

However, anecdotal reports in the WNYC and the standard logical fallacies (disproportionate stops or arrests regarding minorities indicates discrimination based on racist bias) don't do much for Def D's intellectual credibility.

[_Droopy]

The over-militerization of law-enforcement, to the extent it exists, is a separate issue from that of the primarily theoretic "problem" of racial profiling, which is, like so much else, as much urban legend and ideological fodder as it is actual sociocultural reality.