EAllusion wrote:[...] It appears she fell ill shortly after, interpreted that as God punishing her for rejecting polygamy[...]
One of the (many) heartbreaking things about her case is that it's doubtful she would have drawn the conclusion that her illness was God's punishment without someone's "help".
"Some people never go crazy. What truly horrible lives they must lead." ~Charles Bukowski
Themis wrote:You are a liar. You know what you said above about me is untrue. Why not answer a simple question? Did Joseph break any bigamy laws?
LOL I see you still cannot admit Joseph did break the bigamy laws in his area. You lose all credibility wen you want to criticize others like these teachers but won't criticize Joseph for doing similar actions, and then make up lies about posters here.
Themis wrote: You are a liar. You know what you said above about me is untrue. Why not answer a simple question? Did Joseph break any bigamy laws?
No. Glad to see you're for murdering someone never charged with the crime.
by the way I've never claimed OJ Simpson was guilty of double murder. OJ Simpson was found not guilty of double murder, but was found financially responsible for their deaths.
Themis wrote: You are a liar. You know what you said above about me is untrue. Why not answer a simple question? Did Joseph break any bigamy laws?
No. Glad to see you're for murdering someone never charged with the crime.
Now you are just being a despicable person, a liar, and a coward. Joseph was murdered, meaning unjustly killed. He wasn't killed over his bigamy though. Now will you stop being a coward and answer the question. It's funny because everyone reading this thread knows you know he did break the bigamy laws, but cannot bring yourself to admit it publicly. You are no different then those who support Trump and know what a sleaze bag he is.
Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:I guess this the extent of The CCC's "fact-based" and "logical" arguments. His defense of Joseph Smith being a criminal is to say that you're cool with murder because Joseph Smith wasn't charged with bigamy for marrying other women, teens, and other men's wives behind Emma's back. One will also note that he never denounces Joseph Smith for his dalliances with teens, married or not, because the age of consent was so low.
So. While denouncing these women for breaking the law AND violating the public trust The CCC can't bring himself to be honest about Joseph Smith's behavior and character because "claptrap" or some such nonsense.
When religion allows you to exist in a Roy Moore state of double standards instead of getting upset with others for pointing out the conundrum a bit of genuine moral circumspection is probably due.
- Doc
FACT Joseph Smith was never charged with bigamy. FACT Joseph Smith was brought to Carthage jail because it was felt that he would escape punishment by remaining in the location of the supposed bigamy. Joseph Smith was held for trial for Treason, not bigamy. FACT a group of Carthage Gray's though it was OK to murder Joseph, and Hyrum, and nearly murdered their friend. FACT Joseph Smith is long dead, and you still are OK with his murder.
I never said those women were guilty of violating the public trust. I said don't commit the crime. That takes a jury of their peers to establish. I'm more than willing to let the courts do their job, and if found guilty spending quality time in jail.
I've never said Roy Moore was guilty of a crime. At this point it seems very hard, if not impossible, to prove in a court of law. What I have advocated for him is not to vote to put him in the US Senate.
It's also a fact that Smith was guilty of bigamy, which was illegal. Do you dispute that? (You might, as it is a popular LDS apologist position that Nauvoo-era polygamy technically skirted the statues at the time.) Saying he got away with a crime because he died before justice had a chance to catch up with his behavior is no defense of him. And there wouldn't even be focus on that if not for the fact that you are trying to defend his treatment of teenaged girls as technically legal. "This grossly immoral behavior was technically legal" isn't much of a defense, though.
At no point did Themis say he favored a mob killing Smith. I had to look just to make sure he didn't say otherwise somewhere. So you are inferring from the mere fact that Themis has criticized truly horrible behavior from Smith that he must have wanted him murdered? That's both irrational and gross behavior on your part. Just because someone criticizes Smith's treatment of Helen Mar Kimball doesn't mean they wanted a vigilante execution of him anymore than anyone now criticizing Roy Moore is advocating for his assassination.
But you haven't. You have been asked many times and never said Joseph was not guilty of breaking the bigamy laws. That is very telling about what you know and how spineless you are.
Out of curiosity CCC, do you believe that Helen Mar Kimball ensured the exaltation of her family by entering into a polygamous marriage with Joseph Smith when she was 14? Do you believe that when she fell ill coincidentally after regretting entering into that agreement that this was God punishing her?
So we don't lose the forest for the trees here, what you are contending is the fact that Smith's behavior was legal at the time is indicative of the fact that his behavior was acceptable within the mores of the era. The status of the law is just your evidence of that fact. A counter-point is that his polygamy was absolutely scandalous in his era and pointing out that it did, in fact, run afoul of the law is only meant to contradict that point.
To be even more clear, though, we should understand that Joseph Smith pursuing multiple relationships with teenage girls, including those entrusted in his stewardship, using spiritual manipulation such as referenced above, was not generally accepted behavior within the norms of the time period. That's why he felt the need to consistently lie about it until the very day he died. This, it would seem, is another parallel Smith has with Moore's recent case.
EAllusion wrote:To be even more clear, though, we should understand that Joseph Smith pursuing multiple relationships with teenage girls, including those entrusted in his stewardship, using spiritual manipulation such as referenced above, was not generally accepted behavior within the norms of the time period. That's why he felt the need to consistently lie about it until the very day he died. This, it would seem, is another parallel Smith has with Moore's recent case.
It's interesting that people can have such devotion to a particular person that even though they know he broke the law they will never admit it. CCC loses a lot of credibility for his inability top admit Joseph broke bigamy laws in his day. What makes it worse was when asked to answer this simple question he made some despicable attacks on other posters. Now he is avoiding this thread like the plague.
So CCC. Why not just answer the question if Joseph broke the bigamy law in his day. I think we can find a number of actual apologists and other believing members in the know who would. Why is it so easy to say Joseph was not perfect, but so hard to admit what some of the bigger weaknesses were?
Last edited by Guest on Sat Nov 25, 2017 1:51 am, edited 1 time in total.