Sarah Sanders kicked out of Virginia Restaurant

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_EAllusion
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Re: Sarah Sanders kicked out of Virginia Restaurant

Post by _EAllusion »

subgenius wrote:statement from "red hen":
"I have a business, and I want the business to thrive," owner Stephanie Wilkinson later told the Washington Post.

"This feels like the moment in our democracy when people have to make uncomfortable actions and decisions to uphold their morals," she continued.


if a Republican cake baker had said this (spolier: they kinda did), the hair fires would light the night sky! (oh yeah, they kinda did...made a federal case of it they did....the irony is delicious).


There are more and less valid reasons to refuse service to someone. Because they are black or gay? Not good. Because they are amoral vipers whose lies are destroying the fabric of the world's oldest democracy? Probably Ok.
_EAllusion
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Re: Sarah Sanders kicked out of Virginia Restaurant

Post by _EAllusion »

I saw this thread retweeted from a CATO fellow that I more or less agree with:

https://Twitter.com/drvox/status/1010976215358844928

It's in response to the Washington Post editorial calling for "civility" that represents well the establishment media's reaction to this story:

1. Unsurprisingly, this bit of kneejerk onanism from the Washington Post editorial board completely misses the significance of this whole episode. In fact, it gets it wrong in exactly the same way Very Serious People have been getting in wrong in DC for decades.

2. The salient fact about US politics is that the right has been going steadily more crazy for decades -- breaking the law, disregarding norms, sinking into a hermetically sealed media bubble filled with paranoid conspiracy theories, seeking to disenfranchise opponents, etc.

3. At every stage, it gets worse. Norms & values we thought inviolate are crapped on, lawlessness becomes more brazen, ugly prejudices we thought buried, or at least suppressed, roar back to the surface. And with every increment, the question re-presents itself:

4. What should the rest of us do? The ~25% of Americans who believe & want horrible, illiberal crap ("deplorables," you might call them) have taken over the GOP. They are driving it toward fascism as fast as the system will allow them. What's the right response?

5. For years, lefties have been warning about this devolution of the GOP, going back to Reagan. They have been dismissed as crazy partisan hippies, condemned as "uncivil," told they are part of the problem, because being mad about illiberalism is just like illiberalism.

6. The question has always been, where do you draw the line? At what point in the GOP's devolution do we say: OK, that's too far. We're no longer in Normal Politics. We're in a crisis situation, on the verge of losing our democracy. Where is the line?

7. The most insidious thing about the descent into illiberalism is that it is incremental. There's no dramatic moment, no Rubicon. Every step seems bad, but only a little worse than the previous step. Smart autocrats are careful not to provide that moment.

8. As this slide into illiberalism has continued, the mainstream DC establishment, including the sorts of Very Serious People that write major newspaper editorials, have *helped prevent that moment*. They have normalized, normalized, normalized, greasing the skids.

9. When lefties have tried to draw a line, create a moment, force a reckoning, the establishment has united in a single voice to say: calm down. Let's be civil & work together. Let's not raise our voices or be shrill. Both sides do it. We're still in Normal Politics.

10. Now here we are with a president who very openly pines for tyranny, explicitly disregards laws & norms, is nakedly racist, lies as often as he breathes, and oh yeah, is now JAILING TODDLERS TO DETER LEGAL IMMIGRATION.

11. By jailing toddlers, Trump has potentially made a mistake. Instead of incremental illiberalism, this seems like a jump, something to shock the conscience. It is yet another opportunity for a Moment, a time for the rest of us to say: no. This is not normal. It's not ok.

12. That what's the owner of the Red Hen was doing by refusing to serve Sanders: saying, No. This is not just a normal political dispute that can remain confined to the political sphere. You cannot support this & still expect to be treated like a normal, decent person.

13. The owner was trying to draw a line, disrupt the normal daily patterns of civility & accommodation, create a Moment around which people can rally to echo the message: No. This is not normal, not "just politics." We must stop pretending it is; we must snap out of hypnosis.

14. And so, right on cue, the Very Serious People ride to the rescue of the aspiring tyrants, saying, yet again: Calm Down. Let's not get crazy here. Let's not be RUDE. Heavens no. We must retain our decorum at all costs.

15. Washington Post editors say that accepting incivility (gasp) is a "slippery slope." But that gets it exactly wrong. WE ARE ALREADY ON THE SLIPPERY SLOPE. It's a slope that leads to illiberalism, violence, & collapse. It's a slope greased accommodation & civility.

16. What the Red Hen owner (& others) are trying to do is jerk us awake, push of OFF the slippery slope. They're trying desperately to draw a line, to cease the slide. And every time they try -- even now, even to this day, even with toddlers in cages -- the mainstream media scolds them.

17. The Very Serious People who serve as tone police in DC need to decide what they value more: democracy or civility. Because we're just sliding, sliding, sliding down this slope, pretending all the while that things are still Normal. To get off the slide ...

18. ... will, almost by definition, require a break with Normal. It will require some sand in the gears, some raised voices, some violations of decorum and precedent. I dunno if restaurant service is the right mechanism, or even a good one. No one knows.

19. The Washington Post editorial board, like the mainstream media establishment more generally, has been utterly damned useless in slowing our slide to illiberalism. They've done nothing but obscure what's happening behind a veneer of Normal. They have failed. But for the luvagod ...

20. ... the very least they can do is refrain from concern trolling citizens who are (RIGHTLY) in a panic about the loss of their country. Maybe the agents of this cruelty, the ones lying on its behalf, should feel a little discomfort. There are worse things in the world. </fin>


What I'd disagree with here is the assumption that the owner was trying to "send a message." Others take a message from the story, no doubt, but I suspect she was just trying to be respectful to her staff by not having them feel forced to serve their oppressor. I agree that there is such a thing as going too far. It's possible for a government official to act so heinously that they no longer deserve to exist in polite company without being shunned. Political civility doesn't require authority worship.

More than all of this, though, I'm mostly annoyed that this story is sucking up so much oxygen and not, you know, things like the President of the United States attempting to drum up support for denying due process rights for the accused. Those are the sentiments that if realized cause and deserve a bloody revolution, and here CNN is focused more on a polite request to leave a restaurant.
_honorentheos
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Re: Sarah Sanders kicked out of Virginia Restaurant

Post by _honorentheos »

EAllusion wrote:
subgenius wrote:statement from "red hen":
"I have a business, and I want the business to thrive," owner Stephanie Wilkinson later told the Washington Post.

"This feels like the moment in our democracy when people have to make uncomfortable actions and decisions to uphold their morals," she continued.


if a Republican cake baker had said this (spolier: they kinda did), the hair fires would light the night sky! (oh yeah, they kinda did...made a federal case of it they did....the irony is delicious).


There are more and less valid reasons to refuse service to someone. Because they are black or gay? Not good. Because they are amoral vipers whose lies are destroying the fabric of the world's oldest democracy? Probably Ok.

The challenge with this is that morality is at the core for conservative arguments against same sex marriage and abortion rights. Making the moral stand of the person making the decision the grounds for justifying refusing service is playing the bias game. Your view of what is amoral and that of Jeff Sessions are miles apart. Saying you just have a better grasp of what morality actually is would be a step backwards in the fight for equal protection. I can't believe it would stand up against past rulings.
The world is always full of the sound of waves..but who knows the heart of the sea, a hundred feet down? Who knows it's depth?
~ Eiji Yoshikawa
_Kishkumen
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Re: Sarah Sanders kicked out of Virginia Restaurant

Post by _Kishkumen »

EAllusion wrote:There are more and less valid reasons to refuse service to someone. Because they are black or gay? Not good. Because they are amoral vipers whose lies are destroying the fabric of the world's oldest democracy? Probably Ok.


Frankly I marvel that these turds are getting such mild treatment. “Excuse me, madame, you are not welcome in our establishment on account of your participation in the dismantling of our government.” That restaurateur deserves a prize for keeping her cool.

I probably would have served her . . . . Hmmm . . . . The temptation to refuse her service would be so strong.

Unfortunately, Sarah lacks the restraint to resist violating the ethics demanded by per position by publicly calling out the Red Hen. We expect that of her moron of a boss, but I am somewhat disappointed in her. Guess I should not have been surprised. The Christian Far Right is filled with demagogues, bullies, hucksters, liars, and terrorists.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
_ajax18
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Re: Sarah Sanders kicked out of Virginia Restaurant

Post by _ajax18 »

Those are the sentiments that if realized cause and deserve a bloody revolution,


Then let's have it.
And when the confederates saw Jackson standing fearless as a stone wall the army of Northern Virginia took courage and drove the federal army off their land.
_Kishkumen
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Re: Sarah Sanders kicked out of Virginia Restaurant

Post by _Kishkumen »

I am losing faith in our ability not to come to blows over this. It is certainly what the crazies on the Far Right are trying to provoke. I think the Very Serious People are hoping we can ride this out, reverse it at the balllot box, and avoid Trump declaring martial law. Trump and his allies are trying to win by a combination of stealth and provocation. If they topple the state by stealth, well, s’all good for them. If they provoke a terrorist act, then they can push over the remaining barriers against fascism. Denying due process is critical here. We’re very close to toast already. We are sitting in a bone dry, weedy field, and little Donnie is striking the match.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
_EAllusion
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Re: Sarah Sanders kicked out of Virginia Restaurant

Post by _EAllusion »

honorentheos wrote:The challenge with this is that morality is at the core for conservative arguments against same sex marriage and abortion rights. Making the moral stand of the person making the decision the grounds for justifying refusing service is playing the bias game. Your view of what is amoral and that of Jeff Sessions are miles apart. Saying you just have a better grasp of what morality actually is would be a step backwards in the fight for equal protection. I can't believe it would stand up against past rulings.


I don't see it as a challenge. I favor the right of people to refuse service in general. I'm a stereotypical libertarian like that. I simultaneously can recognize that people are wrong about things. I think it would be fine to refuse service to Joseph Goebbels. That some Republicans see Obama as just as bad doesn't change this. It just means they have terrible judgment. We are free to point this out.

It's legal to refuse service to people for their political views. I favor weakening public accommodations laws, but even if I didn't, this isn't anything in dispute. The debate over civility on this is about how to ethically treat people in civil society, not what is legal.
_EAllusion
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Re: Sarah Sanders kicked out of Virginia Restaurant

Post by _EAllusion »

ajax18 wrote:
Those are the sentiments that if realized cause and deserve a bloody revolution,


Then let's have it.


Yeah, I know you desperately want this. You want to kill your enemies and are dying for an excuse to do it. You excite with each incremental step in that direction. That the authoritarian vision you pine for often involves authoritarians eating their own doesn't scare you at all, because like everyone who backs such a thing, you have a false sense of security about your place in your fascist state.

You are far less American that immigrants seeking a better life in this country. America was literally founded on revolution to ensure, among other things, the rights of the accused.
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Re: Sarah Sanders kicked out of Virginia Restaurant

Post by _Kishkumen »

EAllusion wrote:I think it would be fine to refuse service to Joseph Goebbels. That some Republicans see Obama as just as bad doesn't change this. It just means they have terrible judgment.


Do they ever! Part of that is their inability to recognize their weakness in judgment. How to cure fools of their foolishness? I would have hoped that we could agree that some folks don’t merit a seat at the table for adult discussion about serious matters. And then the GOP nominated a transparent charlatan and millions of Americans voted him into office. The mainstream media is giving these jackals too light a treatment.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
_Kishkumen
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Re: Sarah Sanders kicked out of Virginia Restaurant

Post by _Kishkumen »

EAllusion wrote:You are far less American that immigrants seeking a better life in this country. America was literally founded on revolution to ensure, among other things, the rights of the accused.


Less American? Try un-American or anti-American. These descriptors fit Trump and those who support him. They have no clue what it means to be American. They think American is a tribe or a race. They are white supremacists.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
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