Who speaks for the Democrats?

[Doctor Steuss]

Lol, you would like to think I am saying that, but you are wrong. All I am saying is that by wasting time and effort on a non citizen immigrant with a dubious history (regardless of the actual facts) makes your party look crazy and only concerned about the fringe, which alienates a lot of people in the middle. Pick someone else to go all in on.

The Trump admin has deported multiple American citizens so far. One that they tried to attempt to deport last month was deported illegally twice under George Bush. Also, under George Bush, an American citizen was held in an ICE detention center for 3.5 years (yes, YEARS). When he tried to sue, he was denied compensation because the statute of limitations for his unlawful arrest expired while he was being held captive by the government. It stands as a reminder of what can happen to any of us when we stop caring about due process for others.

A pregnant US citizen was assaulted by federal ICE goons in June of this year. Another US citizen who even had a Redress Control Number (something granted to American citizens who are repeatedly targeted by federal goons) was hauled off at gun point, denied access to an attorney, and while experiencing a medical episode (which is documented in the official Federal emergency medical reports) coerced to give up access to his computer and emails. There are scores of examples of American citizens being detained, hauled off, harassed, and denied their basic Constitutional rights right now by federal goons. Native American tribal headquarters have issued statements about how they are inundated with phone calls from tribal members being detained and harassed. Can you imagine being a Native American, and being harassed by the federal government about whether you belong on American soil, in the year 2025?

Due process either applies to everyone, or it starts to slowly apply to no one. Protecting the so-called fringe prevents incursion into the heart of American ideals, law, and democracy. I don't understand how the political right went from the party of limited federal power and strong personal rights to thinking holding a hard line about a basic Constitutional right is somehow alienating. If someone needs to be a saint in order to deserve due process, we're all doomed.

[Molok]

Just to be clear, when you say this you're essentially saying you don't give a damn about due process or the rule of law. Is that the message you are intending to send?

Lol, you would like to think I am saying that, but you are wrong. All I am saying is that by wasting time and effort on a non citizen immigrant with a dubious history (regardless of the actual facts) makes your party look crazy and only concerned about the fringe, which alienates a lot of people in the middle. Pick someone else to go all in on.

If what you're saying is true, why did the administration feel the need to go on national tv and tell so many lies about him? It's almost like they knew issues like that DON'T alienate the middle, so they had to invoke a panic in order for people like you to go along with it. Seems to have worked, though, so you can't fault them for that I suppose.

[Bret Ripley]

Just to be clear, when you say this you're essentially saying you don't give a damn about due process or the rule of law. Is that the message you are intending to send?

Lol, you would like to think I am saying that, but you are wrong. All I am saying is that by wasting time and effort on a non citizen immigrant with a dubious history (regardless of the actual facts) makes your party look crazy and only concerned about the fringe, which alienates a lot of people in the middle. Pick someone else to go all in on.

That may not come across as virtuous as it sounded in your head: it's not that you don't give a damn about due process or the rule of law, but it is a waste of time and effort to give a damn about due process when it comes to non-citizen immigrants who may have dubious histories (regardless of the actual facts).

Or maybe you intended to post this to the 'Letting their masks drop' thread?

[Black Moclips]

When I brought up the Garcia topic, it was an example (in my opinion) of how the left focuses on issues that appear to be fringe to most normal, common sense folks. It was not to debate the topic of due process and law. And I have yet to see anyone actually agree or disagree with my observation. Rather you all jump to the merits of the Garcia's case of due process and want to debate that.

[canpakes]

When I brought up the Garcia topic, it was an example (in my opinion) of how the left focuses on issues that appear to be fringe to most normal, common sense folks. It was not to debate the topic of due process and law. And I have yet to see anyone actually agree or disagree with my observation. Rather you all jump to the merits of the Garcia's case of due process and want to debate that.

Perhaps Constitutional rights shouldn’t be framed as to “appear to be fringe to most normal, common sense folks.”

What other framing is more relevant or more ‘common sense’?

[Black Moclips]

Lol, you would like to think I am saying that, but you are wrong. All I am saying is that by wasting time and effort on a non citizen immigrant with a dubious history (regardless of the actual facts) makes your party look crazy and only concerned about the fringe, which alienates a lot of people in the middle. Pick someone else to go all in on.

The Trump admin has deported multiple American citizens so far. One that they tried to attempt to deport last month was deported illegally twice under George Bush. Also, under George Bush, an American citizen was held in an ICE detention center for 3.5 years (yes, YEARS). When he tried to sue, he was denied compensation because the statute of limitations for his unlawful arrest expired while he was being held captive by the government. It stands as a reminder of what can happen to any of us when we stop caring about due process for others.

A pregnant US citizen was assaulted by federal ICE goons in June of this year. Another US citizen who even had a Redress Control Number (something granted to American citizens who are repeatedly targeted by federal goons) was hauled off at gun point, denied access to an attorney, and while experiencing a medical episode (which is documented in the official Federal emergency medical reports) coerced to give up access to his computer and emails. There are scores of examples of American citizens being detained, hauled off, harassed, and denied their basic Constitutional rights right now by federal goons. Native American tribal headquarters have issued statements about how they are inundated with phone calls from tribal members being detained and harassed. Can you imagine being a Native American, and being harassed by the federal government about whether you belong on American soil, in the year 2025?

Due process either applies to everyone, or it starts to slowly apply to no one. Protecting the so-called fringe prevents incursion into the heart of American ideals, law, and democracy. I don't understand how the political right went from the party of limited federal power and strong personal rights to thinking holding a hard line about a basic Constitutional right is somehow alienating. If someone needs to be a saint in order to deserve due process, we're all doomed.

Hey Dr. Steuss - Its been a long time. Hope you are well.

by the way, you won't catch me defending the illegal actions of the federal government against its citizens. On the whole I think the federal government is corrupt and that behind closed doors, there is only one party and they are all equally culpable. We all just happen to agree or disagree with the thickness or length of the chains they place on us.

I jumped into this conversation of "who speaks for the democrats" with my thoughts on the matter (and if the derailments here are any evidence, I think the answer truly is "no one"). As an observer on from the other side, I think its evident that left as promoted by its media teams and pundits in mainstream media come across to most people in the center as fringe and outside normal common sense on many issues. You can all disagree with that, since it appears that many here are true progressive believers and no issue is too small if the cause is right. But that is not how to succeed in mainstream politics, and that was the point I was trying to make.

{edited for grammar}

[Black Moclips]

When I brought up the Garcia topic, it was an example (in my opinion) of how the left focuses on issues that appear to be fringe to most normal, common sense folks. It was not to debate the topic of due process and law. And I have yet to see anyone actually agree or disagree with my observation. Rather you all jump to the merits of the Garcia's case of due process and want to debate that.

Perhaps Constitutional rights shouldn’t be framed as to “appear to be fringe to most normal, common sense folks.”

What other framing is more relevant or more ‘common sense’?

You can jump up and down all you want and demand that Americans be up in arms about an illegal immigrant being deported to his home country and demand that we should care because these rules were not followed blah blah blah. But they don't, and good luck trying to make them care. It only matters to the arm chair social justice warriors that frequent religious websites that debate politics on the side. That's why I said pick someone else to get behind.

{edited for punctuation}

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

When I brought up the Garcia topic, it was an example (in my opinion) of how the left focuses on issues that appear to be fringe to most normal, common sense folks. It was not to debate the topic of due process and law. And I have yet to see anyone actually agree or disagree with my observation. Rather you all jump to the merits of the Garcia's case of due process and want to debate that.

Is Garcia the one with the photoshopped MS-13 in Arial font ‘shopped on his fingers?



Edit: Dump lying about the MS-13 being tattooed on Garcia’s knuckles -> https://archive.ph/XiZYl

[Doctor Steuss]

Hey Dr. Steuss - Its been a long time. Hope you are well.

by the way, you won't catch me defending the illegal actions of the federal government against its citizens. On the whole I think the federal government is corrupt and that behind closed doors, there is only one party and they are all equally culpable. We all just happen to agree or disagree with the thickness or length of the chains they place on us.

I jumped into this conversation of "who speaks for the democrats" with my thoughts on the matter (and if the derailments here are any evidence, I think the answer truly is "no one"). As an observer on from the other side, I think its evident that left as promoted by its media teams and pundits in mainstream media come across to most people in the center as fringe and outside normal common sense on many issues. You can all disagree with that, since it appears that many here are true progressive believers and no issue is too small if the cause is right. But that is not how to succeed in mainstream politics, and that was the point I was trying to make.

{edited for grammar}

Thank you Black Moclips. Things are going well. Just getting older... and more sore.

I sincerely appreciate you taking the time for this additional message and clarification. I actually had a conversation with a friend the other day about transgender people in America, and how the Democratic party likely lost a lot of people about them making it a kind of hill to die on. For whatever reason, I just can't see some of these things where Democrats may be alienating people as something that can be approached as strategic. It's a reason (among many) why I would be an absolutely abysmal political strategist, and an even worse politician. I definitely have a tendency, as you poignantly put it, to see things as "no issue is too small if the cause is right."

I don't know if it's a pathological drive for fairness and equity, or if it's just a kind of naïvété on my part when it comes to acceptance and maintaining very broad safety nets for society. The Garcia situation in a way reminds me of the George Floyd situation. A far from perfect mascot (in Garcia's case, it might play out he's an abhorrent human being worthy of a torture gulag -- but right now he mostly seems like a beacon of the Trump admin's incompetence), but... a mascot that represents a peripheral cause worth fighting for.

Anyway, I'm glad you dropped by. I always enjoy your posts and different perspectives (feels like it's been years?), and appreciate your perpetual kindness when we aren't necessarily seeing eye-to-eye. Hope all is groovy in your neck of the woods.

[Black Moclips]

When I brought up the Garcia topic, it was an example (in my opinion) of how the left focuses on issues that appear to be fringe to most normal, common sense folks. It was not to debate the topic of due process and law. And I have yet to see anyone actually agree or disagree with my observation. Rather you all jump to the merits of the Garcia's case of due process and want to debate that.

Is Garcia the one with the photoshopped MS-13 in Arial font ‘shopped on his fingers?



Edit: Dump lying about the MS-13 being tattooed on Garcia’s knuckles -> https://archive.ph/XiZYl

I think that is the guy's name, but I haven't seen that picture before.