The List

[Chap]

Ok. Say he actually believes Jesus Christ is a real God, and can really get him into heaven because he believes Jesus Christ does that sort of thing if one simply believes in Him and His ability to dismiss one’s sins. Trump literally kneels at his bedside and prays to Jesus Christ to absolve him of his many sins; this in fact allows him to go to heaven?

I should note that I no longer believe in the religion in question (though I do not think it is a ridiculous system of belief).

However, I can say that different groups of Christians may give rather different answers to that question. The kind of people I associated with would, on the whole, see their deity as a loving parent of a very difficult child who will do everything he can to guide his child back into a loving relationship with him. And of course in almost every case believers, when push comes to shove, will say that we don't get to make the rules that the deity follows. In our own behaviour and advice to others we should err on the side of caution. But it is always open to the deity to be hugely, imprudently, and astonishingly loving and generous with one of his children, however depraved and undeserving they may seem to us. It is said that Jesus would have suffered death on the cross even if there had only been one human who needed him to do that for them in order to find their way back to their father.

[dantana]

I suppose I don’t understand how Trump could achieve this kind of thing. I think he’d be transactional with anything approaching faith. I understand I don’t know what’s in a man’s heart, but this really can’t be said of him. He shows us daily what’s in his heart.

Can the hope of avoiding Hell by confessing belief in Jesus Christ be enough for someone like him?

When the mishies show up at my door and try to get me back in the flock, I generally at some point explain to them that I don't believe, not because I'm apathetic to it all and just have no time for it, but that I have researched it, have been a seeker all my life, and have concluded that Deity based existence theory has too many holes in it.

Now, Trump on the other hand is the definition of apathetic to anything spiritual related and doesn't have a single seeker synapse in what little brain he does have.

If this life truly is a Deity based, testing, rating, sorting station, then the system is going to need some structure and absolute fairness in it. Values assigned to behavior. And, the algorithm must allow very little positive points for death-bed confessions, atheist conversions in foxholes or guys like that barely sentient Orangutan named Donald effing Trump.

[Jersey Girl]

In the prayer book of the Church of England there is a prayer addressed to the deity "unto whom all hearts are open and from whom no secrets are hid". I doubt whether a deity like that would feel that just making noises to form the words "I believe in Jesus Christ" would be sufficient if there was nothing in the heart of the speaking person that remotely corresponded to the words uttered.

Ok. Say he actually believes Jesus Christ is a real God, and can really get him into heaven because he believes Jesus Christ does that sort of thing if one simply believes in Him and His ability to dismiss one’s sins. Trump literally kneels at his bedside and prays to Jesus Christ to absolve him of his many sins; this in fact allows him to go to heaven?

Yes.

I've been an outspoken critic of Franklin Graham and his association with Trump. I have no way of knowing his conversations with Trump regarding salvation. I just found Graham's response to the recent 60 minutes interview with Trump where he claims he cannot forgive his enemies.

Here is Graham where he steps forward and delivers the truth as I know it to be within the framework of Christianity. This is the path to salvation. I think if folks look it over and compare it to the comments here of others you'll see consistency in the answers.

Franklin Graham Suggests Trump Won’t Go To Heaven
November 9, 2026 Christianists, Hate Groups

“I watched 60 Minutes tonight, and Ross Douthat interviewed President Trump. Toward the end of the interview, they talked about something far more important than politics.

“He asked the President, at 80 years of age and after surviving multiple assassination attempts, what he thinks will happen when he dies.

“President Trump said he wants to go to Heaven and not to Hell. Most people, if asked, I believe would say the same.

“But Heaven has borders. Heaven has unique and very strict entrance requirements. To enter Heaven, the Bible tells us that you must acknowledge your sins, turn from them in repentance, and receive Jesus Christ by faith.

“That means, believe that Jesus Christ is God’s Son, that He paid the penalty for your sins by dying on a cross, was buried in a tomb, raised to life on the third day, and walked out of that tomb. He’s alive!

“If you put your trust in Jesus Christ, you will be in God’s presence for eternity. Religion can’t save you—only a relationship with the Savior, Jesus Christ, can save you. Do you have that assurance?” – Franklin Graham, posting to X.

Later I'd like to try to address how it grinds our gears to even think of Trump having eternal life in the presence of God. I admit that it grinds my gears and also admit that twice I have asked God directly why Trump couldn't just die. I believe God has reasons to want Trump and if I read Chap's posts clearly, he's pointed to it himself.

[Chap]

If this life truly is a Deity based, testing, rating, sorting station, then the system is going to need some structure and absolute fairness in it. Values assigned to behavior. And, the algorithm must allow very little positive points for death-bed confessions, atheist conversions in foxholes or guys like that barely sentient Orangutan named Donald effing Trump.

It may be annoying to some of us, but quite a few theologians would take issue with the idea that the Christian deity is constrained to act in a way that has "some structure and absolute fairness in it". That deity's resources of love and forgiveness are infinite, and it is for him, not us to decide how he uses them. And some would say that if by some means the deity can rescue Trump from his prison of narcissism hatred and fear, those who have led the most saintly and recklessly generous lives will be the ones who sign the loudest when - if it can be done - Trump comes home at last.

[ceeboo]

...... twice I have asked God directly why Trump couldn't just die.

Whoa!

[dantana]

If this life truly is a Deity based, testing, rating, sorting station, then the system is going to need some structure and absolute fairness in it. Values assigned to behavior. And, the algorithm must allow very little positive points for death-bed confessions, atheist conversions in foxholes or guys like that barely sentient Orangutan named Donald effing Trump.

It may be annoying to some of us, but quite a few theologians would take issue with the idea that the Christian deity is constrained to act in a way that has "some structure and absolute fairness in it". That deity's resources of love and forgiveness are infinite, and it is for him, not us to decide how he uses them. And some would say that if by some means the deity can rescue Trump from his prison of narcissism hatred and fear, those who have led the most saintly and recklessly generous lives will be the ones who sign the loudest when - if it can be done - Trump comes home at last.

Or, the idea that - Gods mind cannot be known, God works in mysterious ways, Maybe the answer to your prayers is no, is just an adjunct of confirmation bias and simply an attempt by man to keep the God of Abraham, with all his human personality attributes, above reproach.

Here is my attempt at arguing why a testing, rating and sorting system must have structure and be at least reasonably logical.

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=154738

[canpakes]

...... twice I have asked God directly why Trump couldn't just die.

Whoa!

Well, it appears that innocent children are taken on the daily, so it might not be an unreasonable substitution request.

Ok. Say he actually believes Jesus Christ is a real God, and can really get him into heaven because he believes Jesus Christ does that sort of thing if one simply believes in Him and His ability to dismiss one’s sins. Trump literally kneels at his bedside and prays to Jesus Christ to absolve him of his many sins; this in fact allows him to go to heaven?

Yes.

The next question is what does he do there, and how does he act?

He would need to be quarantined for the good of the community, as he would be incapable of changing his nature. Not that he would anyway, as there would be no incentive to do so.

Heaven would appear to likely be filled with just as much vanity, hatred and dysfunction as this mortal coil.

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

...... twice I have asked God directly why Trump couldn't just die.

Whoa!

Sadly, this kind of shocked response is never elicited from Ceeboo when young Muslim children are smoked by US and Israeli munitions. I guess it’s on brand for him, but here we are yet again.

[Jersey Girl]

...... twice I have asked God directly why Trump couldn't just die.

Whoa!

A discussion of my post and that specific comment might have gone something like...

Jersey when did this take place in your prayer life?
Did something trigger that question? What?
What motivated this choice?
Was there more to your encounter with God when you asked this of him?
Did you feel a need to repent and did you repent?
Do you still ask about this today?
Do you still wish Trump were dead?

But it didn't go something like that.

[I Have Questions]

...... twice I have asked God directly why Trump couldn't just die.

Whoa!

The problem would not be solved were Trump to suddenly not exist. Because the problem isn’t that you’ve got one Trump, it’s that you’ve got tens of millions of ceeboos. Although I suspect the number of ceeboos per capita is diminishing now they are faced with the harsh reality of their choice of President.

The more serious question that needs to be asked, is how he got put forward as a nominee, and by whom? Those people are really the danger to democracy in America.