Sexism at the US Open

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

tl;dc - The ATP brings in way more revenue, has a significantly higher viewership than the WTA, and its tickets are in much more demand.

"tl;dc" = "too long; didn't contemplate?"

Sure. Why not.

- Doc

[_Lemmie]

Honor's story reminded me of an incident that happened when I used to do stats for my son's high school team. A ref had trouble with some pushback, accusing him of bias. Multiple technicals and benched coaches later, the ref checked in at the table with me and rolled his eyes, whispering "like I care who wins."

For that reason, I think it's unlikely a ref is going to actively make calls in favor of one side, and while I agree with honor that all calls, good bad or ugly, are just part of the game and don't justify bad behavior, they can certainly be influenced by underlying assumptions and behaviors that end up biasing one side, or one gender, or one race.

...but it is important to highlight that it is possible to believe all parties behaved poorly here.

One of the things that I think is hard to grasp if you don't watch tennis much is just how inconsistently the code of conduct is enforced.

Good point. If the enforcement can be discretionary, it can be influenced subconsciously. This incident, along with the shirt-changing and the umpire-coaching incidents are all bringing that to light.

I love Serena as a player, but she's just like every other player at her level who is tempted to lash out in frustration, and occasionally does. I think one can disagree with how she went about it without vilifying her.

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

I'm sorry, but how was this sexism again? Serena's opponent was a Haitian-Japanese woman, so if he was being sexist against Serena then he was being what toward her opponent?. I think the ump's reputation was unfairly maligned, and more importantly what should've been the coming out party for a young phenom was instead a crap show of illogical SJW activism.

- Doc

[_EAllusion]

Doc, the sexism charge is the ump is less tolerant of intemperate behavior from females than males because women are viewed as needing to be more demur. That’s the claim. That her opponent was a woman has zero bearing on whether this is true.

[_Xenophon]

I'm sorry, but how was this sexism again? Serena's opponent was a Haitian-Japanese woman, so if he was being sexist against Serena then he was being what toward her opponent?. I think the ump's reputation was unfairly maligned, and more importantly what should've been the coming out party for a young phenom was instead a crap show of illogical SJW activism.

- Doc

Doc, the sexism charge is that Ramos gave the second and third violation over William's behavior where he might not have for a man exhibiting similar behavior. He ruled being called a "thief" was a violation of the code of conduct where many male pros say they have said much worse while drawing no call, including to Ramos (not even touching that he sometimes lets racket tosses/destruction go). It has nothing to do with calls in relation to Osaka but with differences in rule enforcement between men and women generally.

Again, I'm not sure there is enough evidence that this is the case here but a lot of this conversation is just a way of discussing the problem more generally. I'll also agree that Osaka is an unfortunate victim in this, losing what should have been a great moment for her (assuming she feels jipped, I haven't heard anything from her on it) and believe I shared some tweets earlier that reiterated as much.

ETA: or what EA said

[Guest]

I see. I suppose my stuck point is that Osaka, a woman, is the direct benfeciary of the ump's sexism toward Serena's un-feminine behavior, I guess? If I'm seeing your point, then it can be concluded Ramos is rewarding Osaka because she's feminine, thus cementing into place subconcious gender roles, and thus receiving preferential male treatment?

Phew. If that's the case then the WTA should just roll with female umps who pass some sort of vetting process to determine they haven't internalized misogyny since it'd be virtually impossible for a male to excise his privilege when it comes to any sort of umping in a women's tennis match.

- Doc

[_ajax18]

Serena tried to make the last female ump eat the ball when she called her for a foot fault in her 2009 loss to Kim Clijsters. According to EAllusion women can be sexist against women as well so that wouldn't fix it, especially since the real reason behind all of this is that Serena is just a poor sport when she is getting beaten. If it weren't sexism, she'd have found another excuse.

[_EAllusion]

According to EAllusion women can be sexist against women

Why is that "according to EAllusion" like this is some weird view you heard from one guy? Obviously women can harbor sexist attitudes about women. There was a sizable contingent of women who opposed women's right to vote. That shouldn't be some bizarre view you are willing to hypothetically entertain for sake of argument. It's confusing to you because you equate identity and beliefs way too much.

Forgetting for a moment that issues of sexism in professional tennis reach beyond umpire decisions, if you want to combat alleged sexism in officiating, what you do is quality control reviews of decisions for consistency. You favor those who are most consistent and disfavor those who are not. Like any other sport in theory, but not always in practice. This likely already is done, so you are just placing emphasis on consistency across men's and women's competition. In addition to that, you make sure to discipline or term umpires who are found to express overt misogyny if and when that comes up to control for inherent biases. This wouldn't eliminate the potential for problems, but it should reduce the risk.

[_ajax18]

In addition to that, you make sure to discipline or term umpires who are found to express overt misogyny if and when that comes up to control for inherent biases.

I think it's kind of absurd that tennis players can dictate who the chair umpire should be. As it looks now, the chair umpires are threatening to boycott Serena's matches. To me the market should probably dictate this. But people who love tennis like myself often gravitate to the objectivity of the sport. Now that we have hawkeye, I don't see how the sport could get any more fair. Think of how many more judgment calls go into officiating a basketball game or when to call holding in a football game. Tennis doesn't always get the prettiest players, the strongest players, or even the players with the best looking strokes. It's a pure meritocracy. All that counts is if you can win even if you win ugly. Sometimes that is to the detriment of the mass appeal of tennis. But a few peculiar people like myself love objectivity of it.

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

In addition to that, you make sure to discipline or term umpires who are found to express overt misogyny if and when that comes up to control for inherent biases.

Wut. How in the world would anyone do that? How do you determine misogyny versus zero accommodation or privileges based on their gender, when they know they can cry oppression and discrimination to gain an advantage or levy retribution?

- Doc