Anyone Watch the Latest Democrat Debate? Anyone care?

[Alf'Omega]

It should be noted: two of the 10 commandments are laws of the land. That's it. No stealing, no killing.

Apparently, rape, incest, bribery, extortion, suicide, assault, and hundreds of other crimes couldn't make the cut over some important process commandments, like no other god worshiping, goddammit. It's not a matter of morality there... we just need you to stay focused. Budget concerns and all.

[_Some Schmo]

If you want to make the argument that laws against killing originated with Moses receiving the law, I can yank out that card myself and the house of cards will fall because you cannot yank out one law for your intended purpose while ignoring all the others. For example, having one God or idolatry isn't codified into our written law today.

Yes.

[_Jersey Girl]

DT, one common complaint about religion is that it produces hypocrites. Why? Because people belong to a religion that they don't fully follow. Seeing a Christian speaking ill of the poor, for instance, screams hypocrisy.

One might ask, How can a Christian condemn the poor given what Jesus said about treating the poor?

YES.

It's because even though people call themselves a Baptist or a Catholic of a Mormon or whatever, what they really mean is they are their own version of that religion (just like everyone has their own version of their god - i. e personal god). Nobody lives their religion to the letter. It's not even really possible to do so, given religions' contradictory nature.

And this is yet one more reason I think religion is pointless, but people like their various fictions. You're going to live your life they way you want anyway. Why burden yourself with the religious crap? I digress...

Long story short: as long as you realize everyone lives their own version of the religion, you can easily make homosexuality compatible with Christianity. Hell, you can make prostitution compatible with Scientology, or gambling important to Methodists. Religious people are making it up as they go along anyway; they follow, discard, and write in what they want.

Fortunately for the business of religion, the churches get the credit, and therefore the cash. Quite the racket.

I'm not going to address everything you said above mainly because I'm not interested in it at the moment. Not that it isn't written and thought out well.

When you address hypocrisy and folks living their version of Christianity, I tend to think it has to do with a number of things but for this post...I think it has to do with the fact that believer's are just like everyone else in terms of what motivates us and our human nature.

The Bible has a verse for that! (Channeling Elizabeth Warren there.)

1 Corinthians 10:13 King James Version (KJV)

There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.


We get caught up in materialism, greed, quest for status just like everyone else does. Even the above scripture recognizes that and provides for it.

And we lose sight of it.

That's all I wanted to say.

[_Jersey Girl]

It should be noted: two of the 10 commandments are laws of the land. That's it. No stealing, no killing.

Apparently, rape, incest, bribery, extortion, suicide, assault, and hundreds of other crimes couldn't make the cut over some important process commandments, like no other god worshiping, goddammit. It's not a matter of morality there... we just need you to stay focused. Budget concerns and all.

If memory serves (and I don't spend a lot of time in the Old Testament these days, plus I've been stuck in my house with no chance of getting out tomorrow and my brain is somewhat rotted which is why I am posting right now) some of the above are covered in Levitical Law and you won't like them any more than I like them.

Women marrying their rapists and such. Then again, I am sure it served it's purpose in it's time in providing for the woman.

The concept of providing for the victim of rape has carried over into our day, we just do it differently (we hope) and have developed a variety of resources to do it.

To provide for her survival because her survival supports our survival.

See? It's about survival. I know what I'm saying here. ;-)

[_Some Schmo]

When you address hypocrisy and folks living their version of Christianity, I tend to think it has to do with a number of things but for this post...I think it has to do with the fact that believer's are just like everyone else in terms of what motivates us and our human nature.

I completely agree. Humans are humans, no matter what we individually believe. I think our stated beliefs are more or less just a personal (uniquely tailored) explanation for our internal experience, but that our basic internal experiences are way more common than we generally suspect. We just get caught up in the differences in the way we articulate our internal experience.

And we all have a desire to fill in our knowledge gaps. Some people use religion. Others shy away from that method. I honestly don't have a problem with people quietly using religion for whatever personal purpose. My problem is just when it comes to influencing others/altering public policy in the name of some people's religious beliefs, or getting into the habit of believing things on insufficient evidence.

[_Res Ipsa]

Wouldn't it depend on who the Christian is?

Yes, some are good people. Do you think Mormonism makes the world a better place?

Most of the Christians I’ve known have been good people. I have no problem voting for theists of any flavor who understand and abide by the separation of church and state.

I have no idea what the world would look like without Mormonism.

[_Jersey Girl]

When you address hypocrisy and folks living their version of Christianity, I tend to think it has to do with a number of things but for this post...I think it has to do with the fact that believer's are just like everyone else in terms of what motivates us and our human nature.

I completely agree. Humans are humans, no matter what we individually believe. I think our stated beliefs are more or less just a personal (uniquely tailored) explanation for our internal experience, but that our basic internal experiences are way more common than we generally suspect. We just get caught up in the differences in the way we articulate our internal experience.

And we all have a desire to fill in our knowledge gaps. Some people use religion. Others shy away from that method. I honestly don't have a problem with people quietly using religion for whatever personal purpose. My problem is just when it comes to influencing others/altering public policy in the name of some people's religious beliefs, or getting into the habit of believing things on insufficient evidence.

Whenever I read comments like the above, I am automatically doing a self-check. So.

I don't see myself as religious. I see myself as more spiritual, following a philosophy, a little bit Ghandi, a little bit Rock n' Roll (Osmonds). Basically I'm a mess trying to live in right ways in relation to my fellow/sister human being and I fail at it. And I know it.

With regard to using my 'religion' to influence public policy--I have a vote and conversations with which to express myself. I typically don't initiate such conversations but if someone asks me what I think, I'll answer.

Example, I am sure that some folks who have read or heard my position on reproductive rights and choice in the US think I am not representing Christianity. You won't, for example, see me picketing outside a women's health clinic yelling at women seeking health care regardless what type of health care they are needing.

I recognize that I live in a world with people who have differing perspectives and ideas about what constitutes "life". I don't think that I have a right to tell you that you HAVE to adopt my ideas about what constitutes life or basically burn in hell. I think that you have to figure your own self out and make your own choices. I think you have a right to be supported in your efforts.

I think that the right to choose is congruent with Christianity and I actually believe that it is a God given right.

I think that my role is to answer when questioned, to listen when listening is needed and otherwise in the case of unexpected pregnancy and if you invite me into your life, I will be with you and support you no matter what you choose. I will go with you to your appointments. I will listen to what you want to express. I'll give you feedback if you ask for it, help you sort through your ideas or shut my mouth if you don't. I will go with you for your appointment to terminate if you so choose and if you need me to, I will take care of you when you come home. I'll grieve with you if grieving is the result. If you choose to continue your pregnancy I will support you in the exact same way. I'll come right into the delivery room if you want me to and I'll try to help you understand the needs of your new baby. I'll take care of you when you come home if you need it. And if you want me to butt out entirely, I'll butt out. Unless you call me back in...then I'll come. :-)

I think that ^^^ is congruent with Christianity. I think it's Biblical and if anyone needs me to, I will post supporting scripture for what I think and what I believe.

I don't see how in the world I need to change the laws of this country that offer choice. So long as YOU have a choice, who are you to inflict YOUR CHOICE on the woman next to you? You don't walk the mile in her shoes. Why don't you stop yelling and try walking with her?

Stop trying to change and judge everyone. Change your heart and open it to others. <----soap box.

(See? I've been stuck in the house 24+ hours. Imagine how rambling my posts will get if I'm still stuck through Wednesday. Skip over it if you don't like it.)

[_Gunnar]

Wow, Jersey Girl! Your last post reinforced in my mind why I admire and respect so much. If more people, both religious and not, adopted your attitude, this world would be a much better place, and people like Trump would have a much smaller chance of duping enough people into following him to gain political office.

[_Jersey Girl]

Wow, Jersey Girl! Your last post reinforced in my mind why I admire and respect so much. If more people, both religious and not, adopted your attitude, this world would be a much better place, and people like Trump would have a much smaller chance of duping enough people into following him to gain political office.

Gunnar. I am a little embarrassed because I realized how I started rambling in my last post to Schmo because I AM STUCK IN MY HOUSE AND I NEED TO GET OUT. I JUST ATE THE LAST OF MY SNACKS AND I FEEL LIKE I'M GOING INSANE BECAUSE I DON'T THINK I CAN GET OUT UNTIL WEDNESDAY UNLESS I TAKE MY LIFE IN MY HANDS.

Okay, I will try to stop.

But Gunnar! I have to tell you something that happened just last night and I don't know why I didn't think to mention it when I was posting to Schmo because it sort of fits with how the conversation has evolved here.

Gunnar. I have a chance to volunteer for a social services program that will involve working with young children. I'm so happy about this!

As to your comment about developing an attitude...Gunnar it doesn't take anything but TIME and a willingness to hold someone's hand and listen to what they have to say. You just show up and look for what is needed. Be a friend.

Trump. Don't get me started on Trump. He's a raving disconnected narc whose world revolves around himself and his own self glorification/gratification. Period. He's no more a humanitarian than the cars parked in my driveway. But you are right and if people were to make an effort to connect with each other and help the other guy heal, he couldn't run his game for very long and our society would thrive.

I'm an idealist. Pay me no mind. I need to pull myself together...

[_Some Schmo]

I think that ^^^ is congruent with Christianity. I think it's Biblical and if anyone needs me to, I will post supporting scripture for what I think and what I believe.

This is what gets me, Jersey Girl. Everything you described about yourself is a description of the way you think. All of it can be said without superimposing religion over it. You are talking about humanity.

I think what you described is congruent with Christianity (writ large), but it's also congruent with any number of other philosophies, including agnosticism.

What bothers me about it most is the dislocation of credit. You were describing you, not Christianity. You act a certain way because of who you are, because you're Jersey Girl, not because you're a Christian.

I used to think religion made people do bad things. Now I think it's more a case of using religion to justify the bad things you were going to do anyway. The same can be said for the motivation behind doing good things. It's way more about the individual, not the ideas to which they've been exposed.