Who speaks for the Democrats?

[Black Moclips]

Hey Dr. Steuss - Its been a long time. Hope you are well.

by the way, you won't catch me defending the illegal actions of the federal government against its citizens. On the whole I think the federal government is corrupt and that behind closed doors, there is only one party and they are all equally culpable. We all just happen to agree or disagree with the thickness or length of the chains they place on us.

I jumped into this conversation of "who speaks for the democrats" with my thoughts on the matter (and if the derailments here are any evidence, I think the answer truly is "no one"). As an observer on from the other side, I think its evident that left as promoted by its media teams and pundits in mainstream media come across to most people in the center as fringe and outside normal common sense on many issues. You can all disagree with that, since it appears that many here are true progressive believers and no issue is too small if the cause is right. But that is not how to succeed in mainstream politics, and that was the point I was trying to make.

{edited for grammar}

Thank you Black Moclips. Things are going well. Just getting older... and more sore.

I sincerely appreciate you taking the time for this additional message and clarification. I actually had a conversation with a friend the other day about transgender people in America, and how the Democratic party likely lost a lot of people about them making it a kind of hill to die on. For whatever reason, I just can't see some of these things where Democrats may be alienating people as something that can be approached as strategic. It's a reason (among many) why I would be an absolutely abysmal political strategist, and an even worse politician. I definitely have a tendency, as you poignantly put it, to see things as "no issue is too small if the cause is right."

I don't know if it's a pathological drive for fairness and equity, or if it's just a kind of naïvété on my part when it comes to acceptance and maintaining very broad safety nets for society. The Garcia situation in a way reminds me of the George Floyd situation. A far from perfect mascot (in Garcia's case, it might play out he's an abhorrent human being worthy of a torture gulag -- but right now he mostly seems like a beacon of the Trump admin's incompetence), but... a mascot that represents a peripheral cause worth fighting for.

Anyway, I'm glad you dropped by. I always enjoy your posts and different perspectives (feels like it's been years?), and appreciate your perpetual kindness when we aren't necessarily seeing eye-to-eye. Hope all is groovy in your neck of the woods.

Yes, it has been years! I drop in now and again to see what is going on but rarely rarely post. I'm beyond really caring about the Mormon stuff and when it comes to the Spirit Progressive Paradise forum, I just don't have the stamina to go 8 on 1 every conversation, so I just usually disappear. Not sure why I even engaged this time, but since I got to say hello to you, it made it worth it! You were always a caring voice of reason, "Were all men like unto Dr. Steuss, yeah, even the very heavens would have been shaken!" (or something like that).

I am also older, waaaaay more sore, and probably grumpier now that I'm on the down slope of 50s. I commute to Scottsdale for work weekly from Utah, so that probably contributes to the being tired and grumpy. But I can't complain. My neck of the woods has been blessed.

[Bret Ripley]

When I brought up the Garcia topic, it was an example (in my opinion) of how the left focuses on issues that appear to be fringe to most normal, common sense folks.

Do you know of any polling data or other evidence that supports this opinion? My own experience (for what little it is worth) is that moderates care about civil rights, which is exactly what the Garcia case is about.

It was not to debate the topic of due process and law. And I have yet to see anyone actually agree or disagree with my observation.

I am skeptical about the claim that denying Garcia his constitutional rights is seen as a 'fringe' case by most normal, common-sense folks. I think of the Garcia case in the context of what has been going on with ICE, and I don't see evidence that moderates regard this as a fringe issue.

Rather you all jump to the merits of the Garcia's case of due process and want to debate that.

Wanting to discuss the merits of the case rather than an unsupported opinion regarding the optics of that case? Fie on us.

It's good to see you, Black Moclips. Be well.

[Black Moclips]

Hello Brett. Nice to converse with you. I’m on my phone and can’t manage quotes as my thumbs are too fat lol. But to respond to you, No, I don’t have any polling data, just my opinion and anecdotal evidence from my sphere of friends, family, and associates (most of which are conservative leaning, though not all). I would say most look at it the same way I do. But To be honest, this whole thing was just something that came to mind quickly and not something I have researched. And it came to my mind quickly because it truly seems like a weird hill to die on in my world view.

Where you view this as a constitutional crisis and a violation that should be rectified, I view it as a simple problem resolved. An illegal immigrant got sent back to where he came from, simple as that. He had no right to be here in the first place. Managing to step foot on American soil shouldn’t be a free pass. Maybe that’s coarse and uncaring and contrary to the spirit of equity and freedom, but there it is. And while your position might be the one we ought to take from a legal standpoint, from the “I’m super tired of the purposeful abuse of boarder enforcement” standpoint, it’s one less to worry about.

Terrible unjust things happen to Americans in this country everyday, and they don’t get national media attention, they don’t get protests, and they don’t get a personal visit from a congressman. I think that is where the “fringyness” lies. And when democrats get accused of being out of touch with the mainstream, right or wrong, I think this is a perfect example of that sentiment.

Anyway, that’s how I see it. And for those that truly care about Garcia’s plight, I commend you. I just can't find it within me.

[canpakes]

So, do you deny that Trump was completely humiliated and owned by Putin at that disastrous summit meeting in Alaska, and revealed himself to be a bumbling, incompetent buffoon? That was probably the most embarrassing performance by an American President in history! I repeat that if you are still not convinced of that, you either were not paying attention, or you have a serious cognizant deficiency!

How did Putin humiliate Trump and the United States?

When did Putin stop humiliating Trump? : D

We’ve now passed the deadline of Trump’s “I will end the war on my first day” boast over 180 times. More than half a year after his Day 1 failure, Trump continues to roll over for whatever Putin wants, while getting nothing in return and with thousands more Ukrainian citizens killed.

Trump went into this Alaska meeting stating how he wanted a cease fire. Watch Marco Rubio struggle to contain his embarrassment during this Meet the Press segment as he has to explain away how Trump changed his mind on Putin’s command:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=q2ulslJwVLQ

… and walked out of it looking like a roughed-up drunk and parroting Putin’s desire to ignore a cease fire, so that more Ukrainians can continue to be killed.

Now, Putin has fired missiles at and destroyed an American factory in Ukraine … another bitchslap in the face of Trump. He knows how weak Trump is and will continue to humiliate him at every turn.

From: https://www.npr.org/2025/08/21/g-s1-841 ... an-factory

KYIV, Ukraine — Two Russian cruise missiles slammed into an American electronics factory in a remote corner of far western Ukraine before dawn Thursday, causing extensive damage and more than a dozen injuries, according to Ukrainian officials.

The attack came as Russia carried out one of its largest airstrikes of the war, firing more than 570 drones and 40 missiles in an overnight barrage, according to the officials.

Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy was one of several officials who took to social media to report the airstrike, saying at least 15 people were wounded.

In his post on the Telegram messaging app, Zelenskyy called it an "ordinary civilian enterprise, an American investment. They produced such familiar household items as coffee machines."

The Ukrainian leader went on to say that the Russian military "delivered this strike as if nothing had changed at all. As if there were no efforts by the world to stop this war."

Trump is weak and easily manipulated. Putin is extracting joy from publicly humiliating him almost daily.

[Gadianton]

Believes in hamstringing responsible energy like nuclear,

Would it be better if he said he was totally pro-nuclear and then stole from federal funding for nuclear to fix up his personal airplane?

[Gunnar]

Trump is weak and easily manipulated. Putin is extracting joy from publicly humiliating him almost daily.

It's truly amazing to me how HoH still can fail to see this. Even FOX news commentators see it! HoH is one of the most extreme examples I have yet seen of the backfire effect.

The Backfire Effect: Why Facts Don’t Always Change Minds

But then, most MAGA supporters in general, are also rather extreme examples of it.