MDB Bible Study

[_Lemmie]

this is MDB Bible study (No arguing allowed) :)

You do realize MDB and no arguing are contradictory concepts, right?

But to clarify for Ceeboo, defining something as an 'argument' is NOT the same thing as 'arguing.'

Ceebo,you defined forgiveness as an Old Testament bandaid, replaced by New Testament 'it is finished' removal of the sin. Your restatement of the points didn't address the question- why is confession and seeking of forgiveness for sins still necessary if all sin has been removed, making forgiveness an unnecessary bandaid?

[_Devoe]

If I were to revisit my former believing LDS self, I would argue that Alma 41 clarifies the LDS view on why repentance is an ongoing process that is tied to the grace afforded by the atonement along with the purpose of the resurrection as more than just wish fulfillment to live forever.

In it, Alma 41 defines what is termed the law of restoration which is the idea that the resurrection brings about the culmination of the pursuits and desires of a person. To the disciple of Christ, it makes perfect the person according to their sincere desire to follow after Christ's example and be a Christlike person which is recognized as impossible to accomplish through one's own works. Ones works matter because a person must desire to follow Christ's example, learn to love others as God loves them, and become an example of the goodness of God. But it's not saving in it's own right. Forgiveness, healing are two sides of the same coin. One is simply trying ones best to continually course correct when one strays out of desire to follow Christ.

It's been almost 4 decades since I was immersed in the Church. There was a brief flirtation with the Church about 20 years ago, and it was also the time that I was introduced to online ex-Mormons which led to my complete mental disentanglement from the Church.

"One is simply trying ones best to continually course correct when one strays out of desire to follow Christ." In my experience, some people in the Church conveyed that message, but clearly, not all. In any event I found it exhausting. I lied to myself for some time about my relationship with the Church and its teachings. Even if I hadn’t concluded that the Church was a fraud (and it was that way for 20 years after I first left the church), I had to conclude that I was not every going to be happy in the Church. When I wanted to believe, it was painful because I knew that his yoke was not easy. Not for me anyway.

I recall viewing other people that seemed to wear their belief and striving with much greater ease. I acknowledge that my subjective perceptions of their lives is not a great measuring device. But I don’t think I’m completely out of bounds. Take my sister for example, we have a good relationship and talk regularly, she is a practicing Mormon, but man-o-man does she do it differently (practice her belief) from the way I tried to practice belief and specifically, continual course correction.

I can imagine that if I was endowed with different genes and raised in a different environment I might very well still be a Mormon. With my present understanding, that sounds sad, but it really is just a shot-out to the power of enculturation and the need to belong. Another sibling, a brother, seems genuinely happy and fulfilled practicing his religion. The brother and the sister couldn’t be more different in my opinion, their approach to their faith strikes me as quite different.

I guess I’m just tipping-balls out-loud at this terrific observation, " I think Mormonism leaves so much space between the things it declares definitively to be true that the contours of belief vary so much from person to person one might question if they even share a religion if one were able to see their thoughts like one could read a map.” I found this soothing to consider.

Just as I can't fathom why anyone would want to pierce their genitalia with a metal ring, still, it seems to make some people happy.

[_Ceeboo]

Hey again, Lemmie

But to clarify for Ceeboo, defining something as an 'argument' is NOT the same thing as 'arguing.'

Understood - I was joking with you.

Ceebo,you defined forgiveness as an Old Testament bandaid, replaced by New Testament 'it is finished' removal of the sin. Your restatement of the points didn't address the question- why is confession and seeking of forgiveness for sins still necessary if all sin has been removed, making forgiveness an unnecessary bandaid?

Okay - I probably wasn't clear (Sorry) I will try again.

The very reason for animal sacrifice was to cover sin - this is why it was required to be done over and over and over.

Jesus completely removes all sin (The lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world) - Meaning, if anyone accepts this free gift of enormous and loving Grace, their sins are completely removed (taken away). It is through the righteousness and purity of Jesus that we are made right standing with God. Other than believing and receiving, we do nothing. That is to say that this removal of sin (not reparation as seen in the Old Testament) is done by the Grace of God 100%. In short, this is the Good News that was proclaimed all over the New Testament and it the very same Good News that is being proclaimed today.

As far as confession and seeking forgiveness of sin goes: As believers, we have already been purchased - in full - at the cross - so there is no need to confess or to seek forgiveness of sin (We hide under the enormous Glory of the Savior and because Jesus has stood in our place, we are at peace with God and made right standing with God)

Salvation does not come by works - we do nothing - there isn't anything we can do to be worthy in the eyes of an unbelievably Powerful, Righteous and Holy God - The bar is way, way too high. Once we accept that we are broken (we own sin against God and we recognize that we are not in a position of peace with God) we go to the cross and surrender. This, and only this, is when we are set free. Our chains are broken. Our hearts and minds are literally changed (again, this isn't by us - it is by the Glory of God/Holy Spirit.) - This isn't "a better you" it is a complete transformation of you that is a mind-blowing experience. It is exactly what Jesus was trying to explain to Nicodemus (Who, like many of us, struggle to understand/comprehend this spiritual Truth)

Here is the relevant section of John (3:1-13)

Jesus Teaches Nicodemus
1 Now there was a Pharisee, a man named Nicodemus who was a member of the Jewish ruling council. 2 He came to Jesus at night and said, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the signs you are doing if God were not with him.” 3 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.” 4 “How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!” 5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7 You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.” 9 “How can this be?” Nicodemus asked. 10 “You are Israel’s teacher,” said Jesus, “and do you not understand these things? 11 Very truly I tell you, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony. 12 I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things? 13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.

So, while a believer who has had his heart and mind changed (Transformed - not a repair) - believers will still continue to sin (we are still human): As believers we are commanded to make peace with our fellow humans (believers or not) We are to ask for forgiveness for our failures (from both God and our fellow human that we have wronged.) And we are to give forgiveness to any/all who wronged us.

Fruits are the natural things that should be happening in a believer - They are the bi-product of the Spirit that works in us and through us. These fruits are not credited to us. They are credited to the Grace of God as they testify to the Glory of God.

I hope that explained my views a little better.

[Guest]

I wanted to add one more thing because, in my opinion, it's kind of important.

In short - It is the mirror compared to the binoculars.

As Bible believing Christians, we are to use the word of God (Bible) as a mirror. In other words, we need to look upon ourselves - our sin - our wrongs - our addictions - our pride - our greed - our selfishness - etc. And when dealing with non-believers, we are commanded to express God's words in love, compassion, humility, empathy and kindness.

Far too many Christians (as well as an enormous amount of "religions") use the Bible as binoculars - That is to say that they use the Bible (in some cases as a weapon) to look everywhere and upon every human being to point out each and every sin that they see in others within a 75 mile radius of their present location. To make things worse, should they leave their location and travel across the planet, they still have their binoculars firmly planted next to their "righteous" eyes along the journey.

[_Gunnar]

Jesus completely removes all sin (The lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world) - Meaning, if anyone accepts this free gift of enormous and loving Grace, their sins are completely removed (taken away). It is through the righteousness and purity of Jesus that we are made right standing with God. Other than believing and receiving, we do nothing. That is to say that this removal of sin (not reparation as seen in the Old Testament) is done by the Grace of God 100%. In short, this is the Good News that was proclaimed all over the New Testament and it the very same Good News that is being proclaimed today.

As far as confession and seeking forgiveness of sin goes: As believers, we have already been purchased - in full - at the cross - so there is no need to confess or to seek forgiveness of sin (We hide under the enormous Glory of the Savior and because Jesus has stood in our place, we are at peace with God and made right standing with God)

Salvation does not come by works - we do nothing - there isn't anything we can do to be worthy in the eyes of an unbelievably Powerful, Righteous and Holy God - The bar is way, way too high. Once we accept that we are broken (we own sin against God and we recognize that we are not in a position of peace with God) we go to the cross and surrender. This, and only this, is when we are set free. Our chains are broken. Our hearts and minds are literally changed (again, this isn't by us - it is by the Glory of God/Holy Spirit.) - This isn't "a better you" it is a complete transformation of you that is a mind-blowing experience. It is exactly what Jesus was trying to explain to Nicodemus (Who, like many of us, struggle to understand/comprehend this spiritual Truth)

Ceeboo, I think most of us are familiar with that explanation and have heard it many times. I know I have. No offense intended, but it makes no more sense to me upon repetition than the first time anyone explained it to me. It seems like an unnecessarily convoluted plan to me. I think it seems mainly designed to make people feel dependent on organized religion in order to provide a livelihood for professional clergy who administer ordinances and ceremonies they would have us believe are necessary for our salvation and good standing with God.

[_Ceeboo]

Hey Gunnar (Thanks for joining the Bible study)

No offense intended

No offense taken

but it makes no more sense to me than the first time anyone explained it to me.

Understood.

It seems like an unnecessarily convoluted plan to me.

Perhaps - but I believe it is indeed the plan that God has provided for His creation that is clearly found in the Bible. in my opinion, even though I struggle to understand/comprehend some of what I find n the Bible, especially the Old Testament, I surely recognize that I am not God - It's not my creation - I am very, very cautious (Actually I don't) judge God - Shake my fist at God - Question God's methods or plans that he has set up in His creation.

I think it seems mainly designed to make people feel dependent on organized religion

You have completely left the Bible - Organized religion is a huge problem and it is one of the biggest reasons that people become enslaved, placed in bondage and experience the enormous weariness and unworthiness that religions place upon us. It replaces the free gift of Grace and all the work that has already been done in full (By Jesus at the cross) with laundry lists of things that you must do in order to earn your way back to him. It cannot be done - It has already been done by the Only One who could have done it.
It's exactly the opposite of what you are suggesting - Surrendering ourselves at the cross completely sets us free. It delivers of us from these chains - it delivers us from our worry/pains - it makes us right with God.

in order to provide a livelihood for professional clergy who administer ordinances and ceremonies they would have us believe are necessary for our salvation and good standing with God.

I don't think you are understanding what I believe (and what I think the Bible clearly teaches) - Human beings (Priests, professional clergy, Bishops, LDS prophets, Gas station attendants, neighbors, baseball coaches, etc, etc) have NOTHING to do with salvation or being at peace with God (right standing with God).

It's all about Jesus!
It's all about what Jesus has done for all!

[Guest]

gunnar:
Ceeboo, I think most of us are familiar with that explanation and have heard it many times. I know I have. No offense intended, but it makes no more sense to me upon repetition than the first time anyone explained it to me. It seems like an unnecessarily convoluted plan to me

Exactly. And the argument that it has nothing to do with organized religion is suspect because the Bible is not “from god,” is specious, at best. The Bible is written by humans who imply they are speaking for a god. That is no different from the message from organized religion.

[_honorentheos]

Ceebs, I'm curious. Do you view Hebrew animal sacrifice as somehow different from all the other burnt offerings that are known to have been part of religious practises around the globe? Was it somehow special while the others were useless acts of fantasy? Or the Israelites just happened to be making offerings to the right being and the others had it wrong?

[_honorentheos]

It's all about Jesus!
It's all about what Jesus has done for all!

If you look into it, you'll find that not even the gospels can agree on who this Jesus was and what he was on about. And those are the books that made the cut into the orthodoxy, with edits, to form what you view to be a book about Jesus.

You could start with the second link I shared early that helps show an example of how we can't even find agreement on the central story - Christ's resurrection.

[_Chap]

The Bible is written by humans who imply they are speaking for a god

Yup.

And in my experience it is all too often talked about at inordinate length by humans who apparently enjoy the fantasy that it gives them some kind of authorisation to lecture their fellow human beings at inordinate length about the Only Way to Salvation.

Quite often these are the kind of people who you wouldn't want to ask to advise you on where you can get a decent pizza.