On audits, elections and public trust

[Mayan Elephant]

Great. The PA GOP has a site and they love the vote by mail. That does not confirm that all republicans agree. That is one state and one that has issues, in my opinion. That confirms that some GOP folks liked VBM.

I can't speak for all republicans. In fact, I can't speak for one republican. I am not one. But I am pretty pretty pretty sure some republicans and GOP members were not cool with VBM prior to the election, and since.

I will never vote in an election with vote by mail for anyone other than deployed military personnel in areas without a base where they could otherwise vote in person. If the rest of the planet wants vote by mail, cool. Go for it. If they want this calamity of distrust between ideologies, great. Have at it.

I think vote by mail will get you Portland and Oregon. Some people love that. Great. Cool. Have fun in Portland or wherever it is that you want to live and choose your representatives with vote by mail and then have a circus after the election. Cool. Great. Be you and I will skip that.

I am not even advocating for a change. I am not. I am using an avatar/alias on a board with so-called post-mo ideologues to discuss post-mo so-called ideologues and saying, "uh, not working for me. that is a no from me. not agreeing to that. you can't use my name and vote to put shinola on shi*." if the entire country uses vote by mail exclusively and we never confirm another signature on a ballot again, great. Have fun counting everyone else's ballots. I just happen to think that a dictatorship or monarchy is a significantly better option than an election that lacks credibility from ALL participants. if ideology and fault lines and shaming and blaming is way more important than credibility right now, great. Great!

And frankly, what the hell difference do elections make going forward? If there is no recourse for mistakes (nefarious, negligent, or accidental) then who cares if we even have elections, other than ideologues who want some validation? If we have standing then laches as the supreme law of the land then who TF can even begin to feign even a small bit of concern about the integrity of the election? It makes no difference whatsoever.

I will say this though..... ..... we (including me) can spin out and get as extreme and bombastic as we want. we get to choose how far out we go on the perimeter of behavior. we can spin out and get mean and hostile like Dr. Cam thinks I am being by not joining the voting by mail circus, for example. we can go nuts out there on the perimeter. we can submit, imitate, self-victimize and be aggressive. Hell, we can go out there and be abusive. But, one thing we can't do.... is choose the responses that spun out behavior generates. We can act crazy, but we do not get to dictate the response it generates. And, sometimes, those responses are not darling and sweet.

[Mayan Elephant]

To compare:

ME:

In person paper ballot (best), digital in-person (meh), mail-in ballot (complete show-stopper).

MIT:

In person paper ballot (best), mail-in ballot (meh), digital in-person (inadvisable, much less secure).

Not to say that MIT is guaranteed to be right. Their recommendations paced articles in Scientific America and computer world, and so I think it's a good baseline.

Nice work. My (meh) on digital in-person has the caveat that I could ask for the paper ballot.

Very good summary and research. Thank you! I wonder how I would align with MIT if there were more distinctions to the digital process. I do acknowledge that I am the outlier on mail-in being a show-stopper. I am okay with that. I just can't abide, dude.

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

I literally show you a quote that the GOP is fine with mail-in voting and you act like that’s ‘unreal’. The fact the right-wing has to invent the term “blue anon” to fashion a counter argument to Qanon, a term they themselves embrace, is so goddamn ironic that I’m left wondering if you understand what you’re posting at all.

- Doc

you did not literally show me a quote that the GOP is fine with mail-in voting.

And I quote:

"Vote Safe: By mail. From home.” <- That's a quote.

And another quote:

“Join President Trump and Vote by Absentee Ballot.” <- That's a quote.

More quotes:

“Vote by mail really works well here in Utah,” said Justin Lee, director of elections in Utah, where the Republican administration sends ballots to every voter in the state. “We do feel it’s safe and secure. We don’t feel there are any real instances of either widespread fraud or voter disenfranchisement.” That's a quote.

Trump:

President Trump said on Tuesday that the practice is “safe and secure” in his home state of Florida. <- That's a quote.

Ohio Governor DeWine:

said on CNN’s State of the Union that he is “comfortable” with mail-in voting and it works "exceedingly well" in OH with allowing all voters in the state to request a mail-in ballot. <- That's two quotes within a summary.

I mean, I can keep going if you'd like, ME. I can show you dozens of GOP'ers who were and are comfortable with mail-in voting, and they believe it to be a valid and secure form of voting in our union.

Now. That said.

If you keep on with the insults, derisive language, and general hostility toward me it's not going to go well for you. I'm just going to give you fair warning - knock off your BS or it's on. I will make it my life's mission to crap all over you every time you post on this forum if you don't start acting your age.

- Doc

[Mayan Elephant]

President Trump said on Tuesday that the practice is “safe and secure” in his home state of Florida. <- That's a quote.

Do you want to compare Florida to the process in other states? Or just pick and choose and cut and paste and make generalizations?

I mean, I can keep going if you'd like, ME. I can show you dozens of GOP'ers who were and are comfortable with mail-in voting, and they believe it to be a valid and secure form of voting in our union.

oh my gosh. Dozens? Oh my gosh. Dozens! oh gosh now. Not dozens. My point was that it was not all republicans.

Now. That said.

If you keep on with the insults, derisive language, and general hostility toward me it's not going to go well for you. I'm just going to give you fair warning - knock off your B.S. or it's on. I will make it my life's mission to crap all over you every time you post on this forum if you don't start acting your age.

- Doc

Uh, triggered much?

Insults? Calling you a twit, for example? Is that what you are referencing?
Derisive language? Calling you a twit, for example?

You think that me not voting or not liking vote by mail is hostile. I do not think you know what that word means. But, you do want to crap on someone, which is an asshole move.

What on earth is so triggering about me not voting in an election with vote by mail? I could not be more clear about this. If others want it, great. I am out. No big deal.

[Gadianton]

My (meh) on digital in-person has the caveat that I could ask for the paper ballot.

Just to be clear, I assigned 'meh' because granting that you could use a paper ballot, it isn't a deal breaker that others are using the machine.

[Icarus]

In case anyone thought about giving ME the benefit of the doubt that he isn't a complete moron...

Sure, just keep it up there manchild. You posted a picture from Twitter, without any context, and you need others ("anyone") to validate your conclusion that I am a moron.

Perhaps they should come to that conclusion, but based on what? Your meltdown? Your feelings? Your insults? Or the facts?

You seem to want them to come to that conclusion based on a meme or need for some group solidarity that validates your ideology. Do you have a better argument than that? Or, are you merely making an emphatic exclamation about the topic of the thread and the OP which is that ideology, specifically among so-called liberal so-called post-Mormons, is so extreme that lobbing insults or conspiracies or whatever across fault lines is the only tactic in your (and "anyone" else's) toolkit?

Have you learned nothing? You seem to still have a testimony of things that are only seen with someone else's spiritual eyes.

All that drivel, in response to a mere sentence, and I'm supposed to be the one having a "meltdown"?

I'm pointing out the origins of "Blue Anon" which isn't something you just made up. The point is you're just regurgitating an idiotic Right Wing meme that was designed to do nothing but detract attention away from their relationship with Q, which has basically taken over the GOP. You do this because you're basically one of their sheeple. This in and of itself proves you're a moron and not a serious person; as if the other tripe you've been posting didn't already establish this. You strike me as someone who just likes to hear himself talk. A typical MAD poster who has a love/hate relationship with getting to the point and plays the persecuted poor me card. "Lobbing insults and conspiracies"? You're the one who brought up Blue Anon. No "tool kit" is needed to deal with idiots like you.

[Mayan Elephant]

My (meh) on digital in-person has the caveat that I could ask for the paper ballot.

Just to be clear, I assigned 'meh' because granting that you could use a paper ballot, it isn't a deal breaker that others are using the machine.

That is clear. Yes.

I have my reservations. I can see possibilities in having secure machines. I have a hard “No” on VBM.

[Gadianton]

With the basic framework in place, a couple more questions, Mayan.

Which statement most closely represents your view regarding the 2020 election -- or offer your own statement if none of them work.

a) Voter fraud put the wrong candidate in the Whitehouse.
b) Voter fraud was significant and could have accounted for the wrong candidate inaugurated, but not enough evidence to say for sure.
c) Voter fraud was significant, probably not enough to turn the election, but it's getting worse, and future elections will be a dice roll.

[Mayan Elephant]

All that drivel, in response to a mere sentence, and I'm supposed to be the one having a "meltdown"?

I'm pointing out the origins of "Blue Anon" which isn't something you just made up. The point is you're just regurgitating an idiotic Right Wing meme that was designed to do nothing but detract attention away from their relationship with Q, which has basically taken over the GOP. You do this because you're basically one of their sheeple. This in and of itself proves you're a moron and not a serious person; as if the other tripe you've been posting didn't already establish this. You strike me as someone who just likes to hear himself talk. A typical MAD poster who has a love/hate relationship with getting to the point and plays the persecuted poor me card. "Lobbing insults and conspiracies"? You're the one who brought up Blue Anon. No "tool kit" is needed to deal with idiots like you.

The mere sentence was that anyone should agree that I am a moron and you posted a cropped picture from Twitter to prove it.

You did not point out the origins of Blue Anon. You posted a post of a post of a cropped picture.

You posted a meme. I did not.

The term does not detract from QAnon. It does the opposite.

QAnon has not taken over the GOP. But, lie more if you want.

If I was a sheeple, I would be fine with VBM and QAnon. I am not. You and Doc Cam need to coordinate this logic better.

Again, your ideology and disjointed logic does not “prove that am a moron.” But your fishing for compliments from “anyone” is amusing nonetheless. How is that working out so far?

I pointed out Blue Anon. Yes. It is basically a term for cabal of ideologues that believe in hoaxes and conspiracies, like unfounded Russian collusion.

[Mayan Elephant]

With the basic framework in place, a couple more questions, Mayan.

Which statement most closely represents your view regarding the 2020 election -- or offer your own statement if none of them work.

a) Voter fraud put the wrong candidate in the Whitehouse.
b) Voter fraud was significant and could have accounted for the wrong candidate inaugurated, but not enough evidence to say for sure.
c) Voter fraud was significant, probably not enough to turn the election, but it's getting worse, and future elections will be a dice roll.

b) is closest in its conclusion (not enough evidence) but not accurate in its basis.

a) making an accusation of fraud is not something i can do. I do not have the evidence or verdicts to do that. NOBODY DOES! Just as NOBODY has the evidence to refute the assertion. We have standing then laches, we do NOT have evidence of fraud or the lack of fraud. Please do not associate me with a) except to distance myself from it.

c) i agree with the conclusion, but not the basis. See my response to a).

Most accurate:

The 2020 election involved irregularities in the voting process that were exacerbated by VBM; the courts are unwilling or unable to neutrally address election contests; audits are late (laches) or non existent. Without a credible process, all future elections are a nefarious game of thrones.