The New War with Iran

[Guest]

We have shown we are an election away from full reversal on treaties, policy positions, and general commitment to the good of the international community.

Yes! That is one of the most damaging and dangerous things Trump has done to our nation. I can't imagine how even the most diehard conservatives can escape that conclusion.

[_EAllusion]

Who would trust us? What kind of precedent is this setting? We have no moral basis to hold others responsible for militaries taking out officials and perceived enemies anywhere at anytime in the world. Israel smokes a Syrian diplomat here? Oh well. Argentina smokes a Chilean official in Japan? Oh well. China murders the Dalai Lama in Germany? Oh well. Whatareyagonnado?

- Doc

Good analogy. Thanks for sharing it. Of all the potential consequences the part I clipped out above seems the most likely. It's also the most chaotic and a genie we may never put back into the bottle no matter how committed future administrations are to the rule of international law. We have shown we are an election away from full reversal on treaties, policy positions, and general commitment to the good of the international community.

I attended a series of lectures at UW Madison from international relations experts last year. A consensus view was that George W. Bush did a lot of damage, but America was successful in convincing the international order he was an aberration. But with Trump, that no longer flies and every other nation has to act as though we are one election away from returning to this. The opinions on where we are at ranged from the American led order is dead to severely crippled already.

[_Gunnar]

I attended a series of lectures at UW Madison from international relations experts last year. A consensus view was that George W. Bush did a lot of damage, but America was successful in convincing the international order he was an aberration. But with Trump, that no longer flies and every other nation has to act as though we are one election away from returning to this. The opinions on where we are are at there ranged from the American led order is dead to severely crippled already.

Yup! And opponents and critics of the USA like Putin are guaranteed to exploit that to the hilt, to our everlasting detriment!

[_Icarus]

Breaking:
Iraqi Parliament Votes To Expel U.S. Troops

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

We have shown we are an election away from full reversal on treaties, policy positions, and general commitment to the good of the international community.

truth

[_Chap]

Breaking:
Iraqi Parliament Votes To Expel U.S. Troops

Petraeus added: "There's no question that the tensions have been dramatically increased as a result of this action ... This is clearly heading in a very bad direction. Make no mistake about it: There will be losses on all sides if this escalates further."

That seems about right to me. Trump has unleashed huge and unpredictable forces by this action - and all in order to try to distract attention from his impeachment and maximise his re-election chances by keeping his base onside.

Is there really no effective countervailing power in the US Constitution that can rein him in? I thought the whole idea was to do away with kings who could do what they damn well liked without criticism or control.

[Guest]

We probably need to examine how much of Trump's behavior here is erratic and individualistic, and how much of it is really tied in to a small but real contingent of American politicians, media, and voters who are pretty happy with his figurately punching Iran in the nose.

There have been a few news reports noting that when Trump called off a drone strike against Iran back in June for their downing of one of our drones, there were more than a few voices among conservatives that felt he had shown weakness. Furthermore, these same elements, including Mike Pompeo, pointed to subsequent Iranian activity in the region as evidence they felt emboldened by his backing down. They laid the ground work for Trump to be more than willing to hit Iran after the events around Christmas. I think EA has been right on by noting the same elements in US politics that agitated for war against Iraq in 2002-03 are finding their voices again here in 2020 with Iran as the target. They didn't go away, and there are plenty of people with a view that the US should act like a global tough guy who owes no one anything, and should be expected to hit hard anytime it's felt to be justified. And the world should just accept that because USA! USA! USA!

We sometimes forget that there are plenty of voters in the US who think, "we are an election away from full reversal on treaties, policy positions, and general commitment to the good of the international community" is a good thing.

[_iwanttotalk]

Breaking:
Iraqi Parliament Votes To Expel U.S. Troops

Petraeus added: "There's no question that the tensions have been dramatically increased as a result of this action ... This is clearly heading in a very bad direction. Make no mistake about it: There will be losses on all sides if this escalates further."

That seems about right to me. Trump has unleashed huge and unpredictable forces by this action - and all in order to try to distract attention from his impeachment and maximise his re-election chances by keeping his base onside.

Is there really no effective countervailing power in the US Constitution that can rein him in? I thought the whole idea was to do away with kings who could do what they damn well liked without criticism or control.

The deconstruction of the safeguards of the president started with FDR when he threatened to destroy the supreme court unless they allowed him to do whatever he wanted. Obama was no slouch in thay regard either. The usurpation of power by the various branches has been their primary occupation for the entirety of us history. The supreme court is probably the worst offender.

I think one of the main problems is that e plurabus unum in modernity means e plurabus vici (Divide and rule).

People pick their worldview and have no tolerance or appreciation for another.

According to kapernich

"America has always sanctioned and besieged Black and Brown bodies both at home and abroad.

America militarism is the weapon wielded by American imperialism, to enforce its policing and plundering of the non white world.

There is nothing new about American terrorist attacks against Black and Brown people for the expansion of American imperialism."

Its just hatred of brown people yo!

Allowing facist china to dominate the world is totes okay! Stopping them is racist! Its just so tiresome.

Judging anyone has become a minefield. Judge a muslim and you are an islamaphobe, judge a black and you are a bigot, judge a jew and you are an anti semite.

Well how are you supposed to function in the world if you can't judge? Not even the most ardent christians find that position defensible.

[_honorentheos]

People pick their worldview and have no tolerance or appreciation for another.

contra

Well how are you supposed to function in the world if you can't judge? Not even the most ardent christians find that position defensible.

It seems your complaint is in being judged back.

[_iwanttotalk]

People pick their worldview and have no tolerance or appreciation for another.

contra

Well how are you supposed to function in the world if you can't judge? Not even the most ardent christians find that position defensible.

It seems your complaint is in being judged back.

I didn't contradict myself. Its an argument ad absurdem.

They try to reduce any judgment to a fallacy. Bigotry. That is in istelf the contradiction! Which is why it is so absurd. If any judgement no matter how sound is simple bigotry then it is not a sound judgement because it is bigotry: a.k.a. a fallacy!

The paradox you are mocking is your own. The outcome is divide and rule.