Saddam Hussein: Rest in Eternal Torment

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_moksha
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Post by _moksha »

Can we finally get out of Iraq now?
Cry Heaven and let loose the Penguins of Peace
_Roger Morrison
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Post by _Roger Morrison »

Hi Tal, In red already. You obviously have strong feelings about this Israel issue. You are not alone. That however does not make Your justification consistant with anything more than human edict. I'll attempt to state questions, and statements 'boldly' into your post...

Tal Bachman wrote:GIMR

If Israel does not have a right to exist, then no nation has a right to exist. You might be closer to a Universal truth than you imagine. However, unfortunately Universalism, to this point in time, has been trumped by Nationalism...

They have an ancestral claim - Jews have been there for millenia; As with indigenous folks on every continent. However, history AND the Bible tells of Jew's "Conquest" to inhabit "their promised land." Seems they displaced, by non-too-gentle means those who had settled and developed "their" land. That the Jews were schitso enough to hear and obey voices that told them to slaughter... Well, please consider that in a higher morality than brutishness. Try Jesusism as one, i respectfully suggest.

They have an international law claim - the United Nations voted in favour of allowing the Jewish settlers in Israel to create a nation; Isn't that conveient! How far back, prior to that "Declaration" have You studied Zionism and the relationship and tensions between Britain and Judiaism?

And they have a (defensive) military conquest claim, as they defeated a multi-national Arab coalition, which invaded the day after the Brits left, though severely outmanned and outgunned; So "Might" makes "Right?" How well do you undestand the nature of the game Warriors live by? Winning is simply an inevitable challenge to engage again to reverse circumstances. This is what makes "war" the worst of all means to settle conflicts!

I think this last claim is bolstered by the fact that Israeli UN delegates pleaded to negotiate a peaceful settlement with delegates from surrounding Arab nations, who however chose unwisely to try to annihilate them instead. Possibly a mistake on their part. But can you not put yourself emotionally in the place of those dis-placed with some compassion? Here today, and gone tomorrow at the whim of foreign legislation!

Underlying all this is the fact that, contrary to common misconception, there wasn't some independent Arab/Muslim country called "Palestine" prior to the creation of Israel... But, there were PEOPLE living in the land who called it home!

These claims provide Israel a greater right to exist than has Canada, Australia, the United States, or any other country which comes to mind. That its formation was more recent than those of other nations of course has no bearing on its legitimacy, either...
Again, i think you are some-what correct from from a Universalist perspective. Certainly Colonialism, and Imperialism have wraught havoc upon the Indigenous populations of those lands. To the shame of our ancestors and to the benefit, and joy of SOME of us who have built well on the booty of those who took by force and deceit from the far weaker and trusting defenders of THEIR homes. "Might makes Right!"

Much of this by hands that clasp(ed) together in piety and holiness as they ask(ed) "God" to bless them in battle. So unlike the teachings of the one they profess to believe "IN"; the messenger! What about HIS MESSAGE? "Pray for your enemies..." How many such prayer are said throughout Christianism?

That there is joyful celebration at the death of a Tyrant is simply a manifestation of failure to establish communities, from Homes to Nations, upon the principles that were to supplant "eye-for-eye" barbarism! Thankfully such "joy" is not unanimous.
Warm regards, Roger
_OUT OF MY MISERY
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Post by _OUT OF MY MISERY »

Roger Morrison wrote:
beastie wrote:I'm not sure why other people wanted him to live, but I have had concerns about him being turned into a martyr and the violence escalating.

I just feel sick over what is happening in general in that part of the world, and for the parts we have played in it all. It's all so disturbing sometimes I think deliberate ignorance (ie, stop listening to the news about it) may be a good alternative.

I too share your concerns. However, i'm one who believes "eye-for-eye" does nothing but create blind people. There is no denial of his atrocities, anymore than there is of US atrocities. Or that of anyother violence infested cultures. Count the US$ spent on wars from Vietnam to now. Imagine that money spent on US social needs to address home issues!! Be that as it is. Sadam was a warrior in a society that rewards warriors. In that he was a winner. Which means there were losers--lots of them. Who can honestly say Iraqu is better off now? Who can honestly say the US is better off now?

Hanging Sadam was a barbaric act to satisfy HIS enemy's blood-lust. Why not exciled as most dethroned dictators? To make an example? Of what? Of him, or his captors and there support team? Both poor examples of advanced societies. Ours just happens to be far removed from where our bombs killed thousands of "God's" children and left millions of others destitute. SHAME ON US!! "God" bless those poor souls! AND, "God Forgive America, as America Forgives others!"

Had Sadam been granted asylum what a great opportunity to de-fuse his supporters! Then to open meaningful negotiations by demonstrating our initial good faith. Hanging Sadam was a stupid nonsensical move demonstrating everything but intelligence and wisdom! Too late now to do anything but prepare for the worse. IMSCO, that is. Warm regards, Roger[/quote



You know they should have asked us before...but we the public know nothing
we just have ti live with the decisions of these so-called smart people

Prepare for the worse....man you could not be more right....



No we wil not get of Iraq....to many people are making to much money...
When I wake up I will be hungry....but this feels so good right now aaahhhhhh........
_Tal Bachman
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Post by _Tal Bachman »

Roger

The point is, the Israelis as far as I can see, have as much right to be in Israel, as you do to be where you are. And until you commit suicide on grounds you have no right to live in any nation on earth (since by your implicit argument they are all illegitimate), I'll feel forced to consider that at bottom, you agree with me, whether you admit it to yourself or not.

By the way, Jews and Arabs both lived in Palestine during British occupation. You make it sound like there were a bunch of Arabs there, and then all of a sudden a nation of Jews was suddenly superimposed on it. Not so. Also, it is true that the Old Testament describes Jewish wars of conquest millenia ago; but any textbook will describe the same thing about any people and nation on earth. That's the way it's gone for the last million years or so...really, until very recently. By the way, how many dollars of reparations have you personally handed over to Native American groups in the last year? My guess is, NOT ONE. (see paragraph one above).

Point is, you can't condemn Israel as illegitimate without condeming the US, and every other nation on earth, as illegitimate. Do you really wish to go on record as doing that?
_Gazelam
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Post by _Gazelam »

cancelled
We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light. - Plato
_Roger Morrison
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Post by _Roger Morrison »

Tal Bachman wrote:Roger

The point is, the Israelis as far as I can see, have as much right to be in Israel, (As do the Palestinians) as you do to be where you are. And until you commit suicide (Hua?) on grounds you have no right to live in any nation on earth (since by your implicit argument they are all illegitimate), (By principles founded on my understanding of higher moral laws and ethics, i agree. However in the Kingdom-of-Man, it ain't so. The higher K. is yet to come. (It is OUR responsibility to 'institute' it. AND, not by war.) I'll feel forced to consider that at bottom, you agree with me, whether you admit it to yourself or not. (I will have to have a clearer understanding of what your "bottom" is before i can agree or not. Will you clarify that, please?)

By the way, Jews and Arabs both lived in Palestine during British occupation. (So why not have let them continue to do so? The reasons to appease the Jews? Surely not be because of ancient biblical mythology?) You make it sound like there were a bunch of Arabs there, and then all of a sudden a nation of Jews was suddenly superimposed on it. Not so. (True) Also, it is true that the Old Testament describes Jewish wars of conquest millenia ago; but any textbook will describe the same thing about any people and nation on earth. (True. And your point being?) That's the way it's gone for the last million years or so...really, until very recently. (Enlightenment is at work! :-) By the way, how many dollars of reparations have you personally handed over to Native American groups in the last year? (An irrelevant question.) My guess is, NOT ONE. (see paragraph one above). (Do you substantiate many of your actions/decisions by "guess"?)

Point is, you can't condemn Israel as illegitimate without condeming the US, and every other nation on earth, as illegitimate. Do you really wish to go on record as doing that? (What makes you think i would hesitate to do that? If you were to read, Copulating Luck In Our (Sort-of) Christian World, you would find that is strongly implied. A free copy can be yours by posting your mailing address in my PM box. That offer is extended to others as well :-)
(Bold added by me in response to You:-)

A question: When Jesus said, "...i bring you a new law..." in your observation of human relations, and conflict resolution have You seen that new-law applied in many cases? In Your considered opinion, do You think humanity would experience a better world IF humankind applied the "new law" rather than continue to live under the 'old law'?

Tal, i respectfully suggest we cannot continue to defy "God", as we have historically done--as you point out--and pretend to be guided by the spirit of peace, justice and good-will to ALL humanity. Borders are a construct of tribalism and serve only to differentiate and protect us from one another. Not "God's" way but Mammon's way. As i see things...

May 2007 help us see through that dark glass to remove some of those fences, and replace them with bridges... Warm regards, Roger
_Tal Bachman
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Post by _Tal Bachman »

Roger, I don't know where you've been since 1948, but the main reason why Jews and Muslims have been unable to co-exist in peace is that while the majority of Israeli Jews have been attempting to negotiate a peace settlement (literally) with their bloodthirsty neighbours since prior to the formation of Israel, those neighbours (as well as Arab Israelis themselves) have overwhelmingly worked unceasingly to destroy Israel, and kill every Jew in it. And this, despite the fact that Arab Israelis actually enjoy more rights and a higher quality of life than do most Arab citizens of ARAB NATIONS.

In other words, the answer to your main question is this: the main force working against the co-existence of Arabs and Jews is, and always has been, Arabs themselves. And if you can deny that after the last sixty years of history, and Ehud Barak, and Peres, and Begin/Sadat, et al, then you can deny anything. And if you can deny anything, then you are entirely beyond the bounds of reason and fact, square in the middle of some religious mythology - which judging from you comments, it seems you are. And if so, then nothing I say here, no matter how factual or logical, will make any difference at all to you, will it?
_harmony
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Post by _harmony »

Tal Bachman wrote:Roger, I don't know where you've been since 1948, but the main reason why Jews and Muslims have been unable to co-exist in peace is that while the majority of Israeli Jews have been attempting to negotiate a peace settlement (literally) with their bloodthirsty neighbours since prior to the formation of Israel, those neighbours (as well as Arab Israelis themselves) have overwhelmingly worked unceasingly to destroy Israel, and kill every Jew in it. And this, despite the fact that Arab Israelis actually enjoy more rights and a higher quality of life than do most Arab citizens of ARAB NATIONS.

In other words, the answer to your main question is this: the main force working against the co-existence of Arabs and Jews is, and always has been, Arabs themselves. And if you can deny that after the last sixty years of history, and Ehud Barak, and Peres, and Begin/Sadat, et al, then you can deny anything. And if you can deny anything, then you are entirely beyond the bounds of reason and fact, square in the middle of some religious mythology - which judging from you comments, it seems you are. And if so, then nothing I say here, no matter how factual or logical, will make any difference at all to you, will it?


Until Isreal is able to separate the nation of Isreal from the religion of the Jews, and until the Arabs are able to separate Arab nations from their national interests from the religion of the Muslim, we're going to continue to have this on-going all-consuming multiple generation argument over several parcels of sand in the Middle East. Screaming "get over it already" from the top of the White House isn't going to help. Stopping the flow of money and military supplies isn't going to solve anything. Continuing on our present path isn't going to accomplish anything.

We need a foreign policy that works. What we have doesn't work. What we have had for the past 50-100 years didn't work either. The Middle East crisis keeps compounding with every administration, no matter what party is charge, and the best we can currently hope for is a lessening of tensions. A cease of all hostilities is simply impossible. It will not happen, and those who naïvely put their trust in such a possibility are living in la-la land.

Fanatics from both sides will continue to fan the flames until there either are no flames to fan or until the people themselves become uninterested or fed up. The kind of uproar that hit the global terrorism threat last year over some drawings was insane, for example. Until that kind of reaction is no longer tolerated (either internally or externally), and results in a real smackdown internally, we will continue to have terrorists ruling the world. Either that, or we need to develop some satellites that can see through the walls of caves, so there is no place where terrorists can hide. Until terrorists are thrust out from among the general population (and can't send bombs from churches or homes with children simply because the populous will no longer tolerate that kind of risk), we will continue to see a lot of collateral damage.
_OUT OF MY MISERY
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Post by _OUT OF MY MISERY »

HArmony

Very well said. I just wish more people would see the big picture as you have just described instead of looking and one sliver of the whole

Foreign policy what's that ??????...I think we have forgot what that may by...Lessening of tension even in the United States would accomplish much...

There are moderate Muslims and they are not all extreme...I know very many Muslims. I had an English class with a young lady, Nora, a Muslim woman and her reserach paper was that Muslim Women are not oppressed...she graduated with me along with many other Muslim women...I would not want to be a Muslim or a Jew....even here in the United States right now...lessening of tensions would be great because you can't even speak up in a class on a college campus without being afraid....

Terrorists are ruling the world right now....and we are the collateral damage....Harmony you and I
When I wake up I will be hungry....but this feels so good right now aaahhhhhh........
_Roger Morrison
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Post by _Roger Morrison »

Tal Bachman wrote:Roger, I don't know where you've been since 1948, but the main reason why Jews and Muslims have been unable to co-exist in peace is that while the majority of Israeli Jews have been attempting to negotiate a peace settlement (literally) with their bloodthirsty neighbours since prior to the formation of Israel, those neighbours (as well as Arab Israelis themselves) have overwhelmingly worked unceasingly to destroy Israel, and kill every Jew in it. And this, despite the fact that Arab Israelis actually enjoy more rights and a higher quality of life than do most Arab citizens of ARAB NATIONS.

Is it necessary to wonder about where i've been? Or to use demeaning adjectives? I'll do more research into the rights enjoyed by Palestinians in their concentration camps. And land encroachments. I don't want to labour under misinformation. Do you?

In other words, the answer to your main question is this: the main force working against the co-existence of Arabs and Jews is, and always has been, Arabs themselves. (Might that be because they resent their presence and the affect upon their lives/culture?) And if you can deny that after the last sixty years of history, and Ehud Barak, and Peres, and Begin/Sadat, et al, then you can deny anything. And if you can deny anything, then you are entirely beyond the bounds of reason and fact, (Seems You might be getting a bit irrational?) square in the middle of some religious mythology ( Remember, it is "Religious Mythology" that started it way-back-when) - which judging from you comments, it seems you are. And if so, then nothing I say here, no matter how factual or logical, will make any difference at all to you, will it?
(Well i'll check your "factual" & "logical" and we'll see.)


Tal, in none of your above verbage did you give any answers to any of my questions. Why is that? Tiraids don't tend to favourably impress me. Warm regards, Roger
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