My Life Was Saved by the Book of Mormon! A Philosophy Problem.

Post by **_Ren** » Thu Jan 03, 2008 5:36 pm

Can't this be re-framed as:

'If I jump out of a plane, open up my parachute and land safely on the ground - was it the main chute that stopped me crashing to the ground and dying....?'
...what about my safety chute?

I'd have trouble considering myself sane if I said it was my 'safety chute' that stopped me splatting like an omlette. So - I'm going with the Book of Mormon saved them!

There are enough reasons for me to be considered insane - I don't need another one!!

Being 'slightly' more serious though, I guess this is about the strength of each layer of protection, as others have pointed out.
If the 'second' layer of protection not hit is vastly more 'protective' than the first layer - such that any hit stopped by the first layer would never have ANY chance of penetrating the second layer, then I guess saying the 'first layer' saved them would be a misnomer.

The nearer the layers of protection compare to each-other, the less of a misnomer it would be. And if the second layer was actually 'less' protective than the first layer then I'd have real trouble calling it a misnomer.

Post by **_Moniker** » Thu Jan 03, 2008 5:49 pm

RenegadeOfPhunk wrote:
There are enough reasons for me to be considered insane - I don't need another one!!

Whatcha trying to say? Huh! Huh? :)

I don't like your analogy. It doesn't work for me, for some reason. Wouldn't the second instance have you opening both chutes? Or something? Hmm.

I'm sticking with tanks and flimsy pieces of wood.

Post by **_Ren** » Thu Jan 03, 2008 6:01 pm

Moniker wrote:Whatcha trying to say? Huh! Huh? :)

Insane people don't know what their trying to say. So *shrug* sorry - can't help ya... :D

Wouldn't the second instance have you opening both chutes? Or something? Hmm.

Depends how you see it I guess. If you see the Book of Mormon / Bible thing as 'points of failure to protect', then you don't have to worry about whether the parachute actually opens or not. You just have to worry about whether it fails for any reason...

I'm sticking with tanks and flimsy pieces of wood.

Tanks can certainly be handy in traffic jams...
...flimsy pieces of wood, less so....

Post by **_Moniker** » Thu Jan 03, 2008 6:06 pm

RenegadeOfPhunk wrote:
I'm sticking with tanks and flimsy pieces of wood.

Tanks can certainly be handy in traffic jams...
...flimsy pieces of wood, less so....

Is my smartass meter outta wack? Tank = like a bunker of some sort. A protective shelter.

Post by **_Ren** » Thu Jan 03, 2008 6:09 pm

Moniker wrote:Is my smartass meter outta wack? Tank = like a bunker of some sort. A protective shelter.

It wasn't a comment about the problem. So - yeah, I think so :)
Just thinking what I'd do with a tank if I had one... That's the best I came up with, crushing cars so I can get to my 10:30 appointment on time...

To clarify - I think I agree with you about the problem... I edited my post. Why I think it's correct to say that the main chute 'saved you' rather than the backup chute is because the main chute offers a comparable amount of 'protection' to the backup chute. Which would match the point about the tank and the flimsy piece of wood...

Post by **_Bond...James Bond** » Thu Jan 03, 2008 6:22 pm

Moniker wrote:
Bond...James Bond wrote:I recently saw an episode of the Mythbusters were they tested the myth that a book of any thickness could stop a bullet. There evidence suggests that most any high powered rifle (which is what I'd assume a sniper would use) couldn't be stopped by a Dictionary, much less a minature Book of Mormon. So I think you're scenario is already in trouble.

*shrugs*

Well, I think we have to suspend disbelief for a moment here.

Did you see Gad's definition:
one's life is saved by X, iif absent X he would have died, then in the first instance it seems intuitive that the Book of Mormon saved him. In the second instance, since absent X (the Book of Mormon), he wouldn't have died, then it doesn't seem like we can argue the Book of Mormon saved him.

So, it doesn't really matter if it is "realistic" or not. It comes down to what saved him. Replace the books with tank and piece of wood if you need to. Was it the tank that saved him in the second instance or the flimsy piece of wood?

Alright, suspending disbelief and allowing that the Book of Mormon saves me from a speeding bullet...the next question would be if it's the material the Book of Mormon is made of is what saves me or something about the Book of Mormon (rather in the material composition or something metaphysical, I.e. perhaps the Holy Spirit). If it's just the material that saves my ass then it really doesn't matter what book helps, any book is just as good. But if the the Holy Spirit (as most religious people would assert) has something to do with saving me from the speeding bullet then I guess it means that the saving of my life has something to do with the Book of Mormon itself rather than books in general.

But I really have trouble trying to justify that the Book of Mormon is the sole reason that I'm saved from my assassin's bullet. The following things would probably make retesting the Book of Mormon's defensive behavior on my person difficult:

-My motion (I am after all a moving target, making testing for exactness difficult, not to mention all the different actions I could take)
-The crowd around me (the movement of the crowd and how it effects how the person shooting at me)
-The positioning of the Book of Mormon in my front pocket (also taking into account how it bullet is effected by the Book of Mormon, which in turn effected by my movements, which are in turn effected by the crowd or the weather elements...etc)

So anyway...I could go on and on. My guess is that the Book of Mormon saving me would be a freak occurance. But if it did save me from an assassins bullet I would have to assume that the materials of the book saved me, not the words or ideas that are printed upon them. To create a counterfactual scenario, would we be having this same discussion if it was a copy of Moby Dick that stopped the bullet? No! We'd just be lucky to have had the book. So that creates another issue, the argument that something about the Book of Mormon is special (which once again leads us back to the God issue, something that can't be tested) so odds are it will fizzle down to what people think. Some will think it's God's will, others will think coincidence.

Post by **_Moniker** » Thu Jan 03, 2008 6:31 pm

Ren, I just saw your edit. I just don't like heights and am going to continue with my tanks and wood. ;)

Bond, strip everything about LDS out of the scenario. Try going with a Pink book and a Blue book. Try that. :) It has nothing to do with the Book of Mormon being holy -- I think? Pretty sure about that. Has to do with which saved the man. Put in anything else of a protective nature and strip out the drama and see which saved the man.

Post by **_Bond...James Bond** » Thu Jan 03, 2008 6:35 pm

Moniker wrote:Bond, strip everything about LDS out of the scenario. Try going with a Pink book and a Blue book. Try that. :) It has nothing to do with the Book of Mormon being holy -- I think? Pretty sure about that. Has to do with which saved the man. Put in anything else of a protective nature and strip out the drama and see which saved the man.

Well if it wouldn't matter whether it was a pink or blue book...I'd just be lucky to have been saved by the book. I'm sure most people would feel the same. The question only gets deeper when God is tossed into the issue via scriptures as a live saver.

Post by **_Moniker** » Thu Jan 03, 2008 6:42 pm

Bond...James Bond wrote:
Moniker wrote:Bond, strip everything about LDS out of the scenario. Try going with a Pink book and a Blue book. Try that. :) It has nothing to do with the Book of Mormon being holy -- I think? Pretty sure about that. Has to do with which saved the man. Put in anything else of a protective nature and strip out the drama and see which saved the man.

Well if it wouldn't matter whether it was a pink or blue book...I'd just be lucky to have been saved by the book. I'm sure most people would feel the same. The question only gets deeper when God is tossed into the issue via scriptures as a live saver.

Is God important to determining which book saved the man?

Okay, answer this bond, You're in a tank and a bullet is shot at you by a sniper. The tank protects you. The second time the sniper shoots the bullet hits a piece of wood on the outside of the tank and deflects the bullet. So, which saved you, the tank or the wood? No God or LDS in that scenario.

Post by **_Bond...James Bond** » Thu Jan 03, 2008 10:21 pm

Moniker wrote:Is God important to determining which book saved the man?

Of course not since he either A) doesn't exist or B)Is very very good at playing 'Hide and Go Seek'...but when a book that saves a person is associated with God then people who believe in God or believe that book is God's word are naturally going to assume that God had something to do with the life saving. It's circular reasoning tied up in belief that God controls all, does all, etc. When some people say they believe God controls all, knows all, sees all, moves all, does all, smells all (smells all?) they mean it.

Okay, answer this bond, You're in a tank and a bullet is shot at you by a sniper. The tank protects you. The second time the sniper shoots the bullet hits a piece of wood on the outside of the tank and deflects the bullet. So, which saved you, the tank or the wood? No God or LDS in that scenario.

The tank...the wood is just a part of the whole. It's like asking "If the bullet is stopped by the book on page 432 which stopped the bullet, the book or page 432?"

Bond starts chanting:
There is no spoon.