For Blixa: Is all art "good?"

The Off-Topic forum for anything non-LDS related, such as sports or politics. Rated PG through PG-13.
_Blixa
_Emeritus
Posts: 8381
Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2007 12:45 pm

Post by _Blixa »

Dr. Shades wrote:
Blixa wrote:
Dr. Shades wrote:So, is anything anyone slaps on a canvas automatically "art?"


No and I thought my reply made that clear.


Sorry, I was just totally confused by your response. Maybe others were smart enough to "get it," but I'm not, I'm afraid.

I don't know where you are going with this...I have a hard time beleiveing you're asking this stuff seriously.


I'm totally serious. It just seems to me that the rise of that unfortunate blight on the collective intellect, postmodernism, has coincided with a parallel rise of "anything goes" in the world of art as well. A sort of "Hellenization" of attitudes toward what is or isn't art, if you will.

Ever since the first few decades of the Twentieth Century, it seems like practice, talent, technique, etc. are no longer required to "make it big" in the art scene. Gone, it seems, are the Raphaels and the Michelangelos of yesteryear.

You, as a scholar of this sort of thing, are my only resource to whom I can ask such questions.


well there is a lot of historically inaccurate information in your response...what you are refering to (I think) predates postmodernism by a long shot and the term "postmodernims" in the visual arts refers to things quite different than the images I posted.

over valorization of technique has always been a hallmark of the plebian---perhaps its harder to see in relatively earlier art times, but ...

if I get a chance I'll try to pick through this...I don't mean to sound offensive, but I honestly did not know if you were asking questions seriously or in a Crocket-ian way (jsut to be a dick ; ) )

by the way your understanding of postmodernism is also problematic...I'm starting to think the best thing I can do is a reading list???
From the Ernest L. Wilkinson Diaries: "ELW dreams he's spattered w/ grease. Hundreds steal his greasy pants."
_asbestosman
_Emeritus
Posts: 6215
Joined: Tue Nov 07, 2006 10:32 pm

Post by _asbestosman »

I know he's not modern, but one of my favorite artists is Hieronymous Bosch because the expressions on the faces he paints are so weird in a demented way. I also seem to remember a painting where there were coins coming out of someone's rear.
That's General Leo. He could be my friend if he weren't my enemy.
eritis sicut dii
I support NCMO
_Gadianton
_Emeritus
Posts: 9947
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2007 5:12 am

Post by _Gadianton »

I'm totally serious. It just seems to me that the rise of that unfortunate blight on the collective intellect, postmodernism, has coincided with a parallel rise of "anything goes" in the world of art as well. A sort of "Hellenization" of attitudes toward what is or isn't art, if you will.


eh-hum. Well, Blixa answered this already but I'll add my 2 cents since I don't think Shades is going to see what she means. A long time ago, I tried to find some kind of continuity between philosophical periods, science/technology, art, music, and so on, and the terminology does not translate smoothly at all, even just isolating periods in philosophy is debatable. Abstract art is usually associated with the term "modern art". Atonal music is usually referred to as 20th century music. "Postmodernism" in philosophy which is usually taken to refer to the "postmodern theorists" I think maps around late sixties or seventies, and eighties, long after abstract art and atonal music had been around.

So the gut intuition that "postmodernism" = naïve relativism = a bunch of junk on canvas or music that doesn't sound like music is problematic. Andy Wharhol I think is a popular example of postmodern art. Like all things "postmodern", there is suppose to be some kind of backlash to modernism, and specifically, in postmodern art, there is supposed to be a rebellion against modern art and its abstraction.

Intellectually, why might it be modern art that is "abstract" and why would postmodern art have a problem with that? Don't people like Juliann who claim to be postmodernists dislike the idea of "Truth", and wouldn't a great way to express that disdain be to throw a bucket of paint into a jet engine which slaps it anywhere on a canvas?

I just erased a bunch of philosophy talk because I forgot Shades hates philosophy. An example Shades might be more familiar with though I admit this is highly controversial, I will ask him to consider 20th century physics. Einstein thought through his problems of relativity in first person, and his results were counter-intuitive. Yet, he successfully defined time as a local phenomena where time and space are in some way subject to the observer. 20th century physics continued with ideas that are both counter-intuitive, and somehow tied to subjective observation (collapse of the wave function). This doesn't imply relativism, but it does imply a growing popularity and comfort with abstract thinking and representation as a product of the subject, discarding theological or classical notions like absolute time, space, and so on. And the way I see it, modern art and atonal music are/were similarly devoted to representational "truth" by the way of highly subjective and abstract considerations that weren't "relative" but rather, highly principled, structured, yet difficult to understand and not easily appreciated by fools (like me). So, extremely realistic classical painting might line up to some degree with how science was perceived in Newtons day, and there might be an analogy between the abstraction and subjectivity found in early 20th century modern art and the emerging science which was becoming highly theoretical. Modern artists and atonal musicians usually happen to also be virtuoso. The performers at the atonal music concert I went to at BYU were downright amazing.

I'm skipping over the problems of solipsism and questions of knowledge and truth for now to keep this non-philosophical for Shades, and also to show how modernism/postmodernsim contrast without broaching the question that usually superficially frames the discussion by, "do you believe in truth or not?" So where does postmodernism fit in? Again, to over-simplify:

God-Newton-Divine Metaphysical Objectivity-Classical realism

Existentialism Positivism Subjectivity Einstein abstraction Modern art

postmodernism community folk art

A "postmodern" objection to European white male scientists and composers might observe something Shades is familiar with, translating Japanese into English. If not all Japanese concepts translate into English, how can you ultimately decide on what true and overarching concepts exist? One common gripe postmodernists have with modernism is the power it puts in the hands of the individual, and it puts emphasis on the individual's context with community. That, and the observation that communities might not translate well into each other (like languages).

ooops..got to go
_Blixa
_Emeritus
Posts: 8381
Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2007 12:45 pm

Post by _Blixa »

Just gave it a quick read Gad..only got a minute.

I'm not sure that Pop art (Wharhol) is entirely considered "postmodern" art which is less about a Period than about, as you acknowledge, a conceptual stance. "Postmodern" as a term describing practices in the visual arts usually describes post-Conceptual conceptual art--specifically the art of appropriation (Sherrie Levine, Richard Prince and other NYC artists of the mid 80's). While there is some overlap with Pop art (I would make this argument), if you are reading art history textbooks you usually with find the term "postmodern" used in the more restrictive sense. You can talk about postmoden art in wider sense, in fact a certain book in which I make it into the bibliography does just that in relation to Latin American art (which has a different relation to "art" as a European practice (the relation of the colonial periphery to the cosmopolitan center) as well as an interesting "practical" use of "recycling" that pre-dates american appropriationist art. The best example of this by the way is Cuban art from the late 60's and 70's (if you want to have your head spun you should learn how "pop art" was recontextualized as a branch of Cuban literacy campaigns!).

anywho if Shades is disinclined to encounter philosophy I don't know how to talk to him about art. Art is idea, not skill. What makes art art are matters of institutional context (a question settled by Duchamp among others) which are themselves matters of history and the conceptual.

I'm not sure that the term "postmodern" even has much currency in contemporary discussions of art---I mean things being written about things in galleries right now. I don't think I've noticed it with the frequency that I did once, for at least a decade now.

Shades seems stuck on some, dare I say naïve distinction between a "classic" realism coupled with worship of "skill," and perhaps there's some "talented genius" ideas in the mix, too. The two examples he gave, Raphael and Michealangelo do share one thing in common with some postmodern artists: the work of both was often the work of a collective of artists, "students" or "assistants" whose skills may be what you're looking at when you think you see "Raphael."

As for postmodern theory itself, it is quite a various set of philosophical tendencies, some of which are very much resistant to the dominant global order and some of which underwrite it in the most craven fashion. The point would be to read such theory in terms of the historical conditions that necessitated it: one could do worse than begin with Frederic Jameson's "Postmodernism: or the Cultural Logic of Late Capitalism." That's a just a starting point, though, and hardly the last word. There is a great deal of value in the work of Derrida and Foucault (although I am critical of the conceptual consequences of their work), useful insights in the early Baudrillard, nothing in the work of Lyotard (I don't really mean that, though I find his work the most exemplery of "bad" postmodernism) and going back further, a great deal of value in the poststructuralist "break" which traces its geneology from Saussure forward: for example the work of Althusser and Lacan (who I am much enjoying as I'm currently re-reading him and Freud). I've left many other names out here: Deleuz, Guattari, Irigaray, Kristeva, Virilio, and many others... but its time for Project Runway and I hope that little drip Christian with the Frank Gehry hair gets booted tonight.

by the way Gad...postmodernism community folk art? I got a big laugh, but I know where you're going with that...still what a funny example of "self shorthand" , huh?
From the Ernest L. Wilkinson Diaries: "ELW dreams he's spattered w/ grease. Hundreds steal his greasy pants."
_Moniker
_Emeritus
Posts: 4004
Joined: Wed Dec 05, 2007 11:53 pm

Post by _Moniker »

Dr. Shades wrote:
Blixa wrote:[T]he second question about the images I provided: Yes, I guess in general I would consider all of them qualitatively equal, . . .


REALLY? You didn't think a couple of them were. . . forgive the choice of word. . . reprobate?


I'm thinking I must have liked the ones that were "reprobate"?
_Bond...James Bond
_Emeritus
Posts: 4627
Joined: Tue Nov 07, 2006 4:49 am

Post by _Bond...James Bond »

To quote my dad: "I don't know art, but I know what I like." My eye is what I use to decide if a piece of art is good or not. Screw the technical jargon, the critics or whatever. If I like something I like it. If I don't I don't. And no one else's description is going to override my opinion.
"Whatever appears to be against the Book of Mormon is going to be overturned at some time in the future. So we can be pretty open minded."-charity 3/7/07
_asbestosman
_Emeritus
Posts: 6215
Joined: Tue Nov 07, 2006 10:32 pm

Post by _asbestosman »

Bond...James Bond wrote:To quote my dad: "I don't know art, but I know what I like." My eye is what I use to decide if a piece of art is good or not. Screw the technical jargon, the critics or whatever. If I like something I like it. If I don't I don't. And no one else's description is going to override my opinion.


That's pretty much what it is for me too. I like a lot of art. I don't claim to be in the know, but I do enjoy more than just realistic art. I enjoy the colors and feel of impressionism. I like the uniqueness of Picasso.
That's General Leo. He could be my friend if he weren't my enemy.
eritis sicut dii
I support NCMO
_Blixa
_Emeritus
Posts: 8381
Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2007 12:45 pm

Post by _Blixa »

Sorry a lot of that sounded snippy Shades; I am really distracted at the moment.

I don't mind talking with people about these issues and making suggestions for further education. However, phrases like " So, is anything anyone slaps on a canvas automatically "art?"* and "that unfortunate blight on the collective intellect, postmodernism" are not statements I associate with a willingness to learn. In fact they sound like the opposite, a belligerent ignorance. Ultimately I don't care what someone "likes" or doesn't like. I'm not interested in inculcating "taste" or connoisseurship, but rather approach these things in terms of larger issues of cultural, ideological, critique. My fascination with art and art practice comes from their ability to pose questions and produce forms of understanding and communication beyond the conventional. Anything less is just decoration (not even design).

*the equation of art with what's on a canvas really sums up what I find inadequate about this question as a starting point.
From the Ernest L. Wilkinson Diaries: "ELW dreams he's spattered w/ grease. Hundreds steal his greasy pants."
_asbestosman
_Emeritus
Posts: 6215
Joined: Tue Nov 07, 2006 10:32 pm

Post by _asbestosman »

Blixa wrote:*the equation of art with what's on a canvas really sums up what I find inadequate about this question as a starting point.

I remember hearing about a work of art that consists of a description of what to paint. That's kinda different and I can sorta appreciate that. I wouldn't buy it though.
That's General Leo. He could be my friend if he weren't my enemy.
eritis sicut dii
I support NCMO
_Gadianton
_Emeritus
Posts: 9947
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2007 5:12 am

Post by _Gadianton »

I'll come back to Blixa...

For Bond and Ab,

I agree, sort of, to the extent I'm the same way with a lot of things. But be aware that "what you like", even if you know what you like, can change with education. Some people like MP3s and sound systems with kind of crappy speakers and too much bass. But with some education on accoustics, mixing, sampling, imaging, and other things, some examples to work with, that same person a few hours later will be able to appreciate better sound. Same holds true with art, beer drinking, and literature.
Post Reply