Q for Shades about 911 conspiracy

[_Who Knows]

So, I'm reading the Popular Mechanics article right now, and I'm only on page 3 and have serious issue.

Intercepts Not Routine
Claim: "It has been standard operating procedures for decades to immediately intercept off-course planes that do not respond to communications from air traffic controllers," says the Web site oilempire.us. "When the Air Force 'scrambles' a fighter plane to intercept, they usually reach the plane in question in minutes."

FACT: In the decade before 9/11, NORAD intercepted only one civilian plane over North America: golfer Payne Stewart's Learjet, in October 1999. With passengers and crew unconscious from cabin decompression, the plane lost radio contact but remained in transponder contact until it crashed. Even so, it took an F-16 1 hour and 22 minutes to reach the stricken jet. Rules in effect back then, and on 9/11, prohibited supersonic flight on intercepts. Prior to 9/11, all other NORAD interceptions were limited to offshore Air Defense Identification Zones (ADIZ). "Until 9/11 there was no domestic ADIZ," FAA spokesman Bill Schumann tells PM. After 9/11, NORAD and the FAA increased cooperation, setting up hotlines between ATCs and NORAD command centers, according to officials from both agencies. NORAD has also increased its fighter coverage and has installed radar to monitor airspace over the continent.

This is an outright fabrication.

In 2000, NORAD scrambled and intercepted around 75 off-plan flights. All within 30 minutes of no-contact deviation. They had a 100% accuracy in doing so.

I'm still reading, but based on this, I'm not impressed.

This "67 times" factoid hails from a 2002 Associated Press story. A subsequent Knight-Ridder article pointed out that these 67 times (from June 2000 to September 2001) weren't over the continental United States. Sadly, the North American Aerospace Defense Command (NORAD) didn't pay as much attention to the Lower 48 pre-9/11. It expected threats to originate outside the country.

http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/2006-09- ... se-screws/

[_Bryan Inks]

No, there are pictures of aluminum pieces on the grass. Not plane wreckage. I did find a site that claimed to have photographic proof of engine parts, landing gear, etc. but it was proven that most of the images were taken from other wrecks.

Nor has there been any photographic evidence of passengers, luggage, seats, the *supposedly* undestructible "Black Box".

From the Popular Mechanics article:

FACT: Blast expert Allyn E. Kilsheimer was the first structural engineer to arrive at the Pentagon after the crash and helped coordinate the emergency response. "It was absolutely a plane, and I'll tell you why," says Kilsheimer, CEO of KCE Structural Engineers PC, Washington, D.C. "I saw the marks of the plane wing on the face of the building. I picked up parts of the plane with the airline markings on them. I held in my hand the tail section of the plane, and I found the black box." Kilsheimer's eyewitness account is backed up by photos of plane wreckage inside and outside the building. Kilsheimer adds: "I held parts of uniforms from crew members in my hands, including body parts. Okay?"

So basically you're saying Allyn Kilsheimer was in on the big conspiracy, right? And that he lied about having picked up parts of the plane with airline markings on them, handling some of the tail section, the black box, and finding uniform bits from crew members, and body parts?

My response: We have one person who claims to have seen/handled these things. Why no photos? Why no information based on them?

Bryan, have you seen this YouTube video showing an F4 Phantom jet crashing into a concrete wall? It was doing 500 mph, in the ballpark of what the 9/11 hijacked planes were doing. It's said in the video that the F4 essentially atomized, that only the wingtips survived, and that's because the wings were wider than the concrete block, as you can see in the video.

The Pentagon walls were strong, reinforced structures. The plane that hit it was shredded on impact, leaving most just small fragments. Were you expecting to have a large fuselage section left or something, like a twisted car body in a car accident? Sorry, 500 mph aircraft collisions into steel reinforced concrete structures on the ground just don't do that.

This explanation raises even more problems for you.

If the plane "essentially atomized" on impact with the Pentagon, how did enough of the nose survive to punch a 16-foot hole in an inner ring? The nose would have been the first part to have been destroyed.

As for twisted wreckage, yeah. I'd expect that a solid steel/titanium engine that weighs nearly 6 tons would have some pieces of it left in the wreckage.

I don't like the Bush administration either, but that's no reason to embrace dubious to absurd conspiracy theories either. The evidence is clear that Osama bin Laden's crew did this with hijacked airliners. That some in the Bush administration have taken this and gone with it much further than they ought to have, and have done some pretty bone-headed things in the world since then, is not evidence that 9/11 was actually allowed, caused, or participated in by the US government.

Despite the fact that over 50% of the people who were supposedly on the planes to hijack them are still alive? One of them was in a college class when it was announced that he had died in impact.

I call shenanigans.

[_Who Knows]

Ok, i'm done. This tit for tat could go on for 100 pages.

Debunk something, then bring something else up. etc. etc. etc.

[_skippy the dead]

I don't like the Bush administration either, but that's no reason to embrace dubious to absurd conspiracy theories either. The evidence is clear that Osama bin Laden's crew did this with hijacked airliners. That some in the Bush administration have taken this and gone with it much further than they ought to have, and have done some pretty bone-headed things in the world since then, is not evidence that 9/11 was actually allowed, caused, or participated in by the US government.

Despite the fact that over 50% of the people who were supposedly on the planes to hijack them are still alive? One of them was in a college class when it was announced that he had died in impact.

I call shenanigans.

WTF does this mean? I worked with someone who died on Flight 93. What does "50% of the people who were supposedly on the planes are still alive" mean? "They" fabricated death counts? They pretended that the former solicitor general's wife was on the plane that struck the Pentagon? They identified bodies from the plane, using DNA. Good lord.

[_Bryan Inks]

I don't like the Bush administration either, but that's no reason to embrace dubious to absurd conspiracy theories either. The evidence is clear that Osama bin Laden's crew did this with hijacked airliners. That some in the Bush administration have taken this and gone with it much further than they ought to have, and have done some pretty bone-headed things in the world since then, is not evidence that 9/11 was actually allowed, caused, or participated in by the US government.

Despite the fact that over 50% of the people who were supposedly on the planes to hijack them are still alive? One of them was in a college class when it was announced that he had died in impact.

I call shenanigans.

WTF does this mean? I worked with someone who died on Flight 93. What does "50% of the people who were supposedly on the planes are still alive" mean? "They" fabricated death counts? They pretended that the former solicitor general's wife was on the plane that struck the Pentagon? They identified bodies from the plane, using DNA. Good lord.

LRN2READ.

Despite the fact that over 50% of the people who were supposedly on the planes to hijack them are still alive?

Translated for simple English, "Over 50% of the hijackers that we were told died in the attack are still alive."

I'm not saying that people didn't die. Dear god, what kind of insane and obtuse bastard would you take me for? I'm saying, I don't accept the "official" explanation for it because there are too damn many things that don't add up.

One of my best friends in high school lost his brother in the attack. I'm cynical, not f***ing retarded.

[_Sethbag]

This explanation raises even more problems for you.

If the plane "essentially atomized" on impact with the Pentagon, how did enough of the nose survive to punch a 16-foot hole in an inner ring? The nose would have been the first part to have been destroyed.

It wasn't the nose that punched the hole. It was the landing gear. The landing gear are essentially the densest and solidest parts of the aircraft. The forces they must cope with are enormous, and therefore the landing gear are built tough, and as dense as they can be.

As for twisted wreckage, yeah. I'd expect that a solid steel/titanium engine that weighs nearly 6 tons would have some pieces of it left in the wreckage.

Solid steel/titanium? Sorry Bryan, jet engines aren't solid. In fact, they're mostly hollow. Both turbofans and turbojets have to pass massive quantities of air through them. The turbines themselves are spinning at ungodly speeds with sensitive vanes on them which tend to sheer off violently when something happens to unbalance or disrupt them. Probably the most solid things in a turbofan or turbojet are the central shafts that the turbine wheels are mounted on, and it wouldn't surprise me if twisted shafts weren't found amid the wreckage.

Watch the F4 Phantom video again. How much of the F4's turbojets appears to survive the collision with the concrete? Not much. Turbine aircraft engines aren't massive, solid blocks like piston engines kind of are. They're much more fragile collections of mostly hollow space surrounded by intricate metal parts. I've worked on them. If you cut your average turbine engine in half and measured the thicknesses of the parts, I'd be surprised if you found any parts thicker than some small fraction of an inch, on average.

Despite the fact that over 50% of the people who were supposedly on the planes to hijack them are still alive? One of them was in a college class when it was announced that he had died in impact.

I call shenanigans.

Ok, so one college student missed his flight and was in class instead of being on the plane when it went into the building? That's really convincing. I call BS on the 50% of the passengers on those flights still being alive. If that were true we'd see that all over the news. It's not. By the way, a guy at the facility I worked at when 9/11 happened was on board one of those flights. He's dead and gone. You might like to take it up with his widow.

Also, with regard to the conspiratorial rumors that various people were warned off flying that day, you might ask why Ted Olsen, the former Solicitor General under George W. Bush who was serving as SG at the time of the hijackings, didn't get the memo. His wife Barbara flew into the Pentagon at 500ish mph with the rest of Flight 77.

This is the same Ted Olsen who basically clinched GW Bush's election in 2000 by successfully arguing Bush's case before the Supreme Court which nixed the Floridan recount.

What a fine way this Bush loyalist was rewarded by the puppetmasters, eh? Having his wife atomized on 9/11?

Like Who Knows I'm done with this topic. It's like playing whack-a-mole. You hammer down one piece of can't-miss, iron-clad evidence for conspiracy and another one pops up in its place. It's as bad as LDS apologetics.

[_Scottie]

Like Who Knows I'm done with this topic. It's like playing whack-a-mole. You hammer down one piece of can't-miss, iron-clad evidence for conspiracy and another one pops up in its place. It's as bad as LDS apologetics.

No, apologetics would say, "You can throw all the proof you want at me, but I have my witness and nothing can take that away!!"

[_Bryan Inks]

I'll cede the engines. I haven't seen the video because I don't have access to most video sites from work.

Ok, so one college student missed his flight and was in class instead of being on the plane when it went into the building? That's really convincing. I call BS on the 50% of the passengers on those flights still being alive. If that were true we'd see that all over the news. It's not. By the way, a guy at the facility I worked at when 9/11 happened was on board one of those flights. He's dead and gone. You might like to take it up with his widow.

Dear God in Heaven. READ THE F***ING SENTENCE! 50% OF THE "HIJACKERS" ARE STILL ALIVE, DESPITE CLAIMS THAT THEY DIED IN THE DAMN ATTACK.

None of the survivors were even in America during the attack. The student I referred to was in class in (if memory serves) England at the time of the attack. His professor commented that he "looked pretty good for having just died in a plane crash."

Like Who Knows I'm done with this topic. It's like playing whack-a-mole. You hammer down one piece of can't-miss, iron-clad evidence for conspiracy and another one pops up in its place. It's as bad as LDS apologetics.

Unfortunately, I disagree. The vast majority of what you people define as "iron-clad", I don't see as being such, when taken in context.

And, if you'll be bothered to notice, I've admitted several times now that I accept some of the arguments, in fact, I've backed down on several points because of your evidence.

Mormon apologetics indeed. But only from your inability to comprehend what is being said.

[_Sethbag]

Ok, you win. GWB's puppetmasters, including arch nemesis of freedom Dick Cheney, orchestrated this whole conspiracy where demolition charges were wired up to floors 94 through 98 of the North Tower, and floors 78 through 84 of the South Tower, plus building 7, of the World Trade center, and then got Osama bin Laden to agree to have some of his folks jijack some American airliners and fly them into the WTC bulidings right at these very ranges of floors, to cover up the actual demolition charges, and then the US military simultaneously fired some kinda cruise missile into the Pentagon, meanwhile a lot of families and co-workers from various parts all around the country were kidnapped and murdered by US agents so they could credibly be made to look like 9/11 hijacking victims, and by the way nobody's talking, the conspiracy is still intact 6.5 years later, etc.

I'm done with the topic.

[_Bryan Inks]

I'm done with the topic.

And apparently an asshole as well.