Romney loses in Florida to McCain...

[_asbestosman]

Let's see. A guy, or a family, is so desperate to be in the US that they sneak in past whatever border controls we have. Is that person not going to drive just because they haven't got a license? Hello, they didn't have a Visa to enter the country either, and that didn't stop them. If they're gonna be here despite our other laws prohibiting it, and if they're gonna be driving, I'd rather know who they are when they get pulled over or get arrested, or get into an accident, or whatever.

While I also would like to recover something when an illegal hits my car, I don't see why they'd have any motivation to get insurance in the first place. Since many don't have any money to begin with they don't have much to lose in an accident, but they have plenty to lose in paying insurance premiums (especially if insurance charges extra for illegals just as it charges extra for males and even more for males under tha age of 25).

[_ozemc]

Um, "the browns" are the ones flooding the country by the millions. I served part of my mission in Santa Ana California. We'd knock on doors and see in some apartments there were two dozen Mexicans living on the floor. Oddly enough, they managed to all have a TV and VCR so we could play Church videos for them. When they are here illegally, criminal activity is not only an attractive lifestyle, it can become a necessity for survival. And what's worse, billions of potential revenues earned by illegal immigrants are sent back to their home countries, so it isn't like they are contributing or putting back much into our economy.

If we just opened the borders entirely, do we really doubt that there is a single Mexican in Mexico who wouldn't be on his way? Are we prepared to absorb 100 million from Latin America?

I reiterate. You are a racist and a bigot -- "Mexicans" and Muslims. Why bother even talking to you? You've made up your mind on the basis of one's skin color.

Are you by any chance a TBM Mormon? Do you believe other religions have the truth, or just your own? Wouldn't that make you a "bigot"?

What about people with less education than you? How do you treat them? Do you call them "morons" like you've called some people on this board (in this thread, no less). Isn't that a bit "bigoted" of you?

Are you white, black, etc.?

If you're white, do you go into the downtown of a large city at 3:00 AM in the morning? Why not? Are you a racist?

If you're black, do you go into that little southern town to get something to eat while on the highway? Or do you avoid it? Why? Are you a racist?

Be careful of the labels you give other people.

[_Sethbag]

The 2nd amendment very clearly states "the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed".

And yet, clearly it is. We prohibit some people from bearing arms--convicted felons for one (I think). We also limit the sort of arms other citizens may obtain (no automatic weapons If I recall correctly).

Do a Google search on "NFA 1934". Private citizens can in fact own automatic weapons in the US. You gotta fill out some forms, submit passport photos, get a background check, have your local police chief (or some other qualified individual) sign off on your application, for the privilege of paying a $200 tax, and then you can own it. I used to own a machine gun. I never used to talk about it because it's not something I wanted everyone to know (so I wouldn't get robbed), but I sold it a couple of years ago, so I don't mind saying it. It was pretty crappy, actually. It was an M11/9. I'd rather have something like a 16" barreled AR-15 any day of the week than that M11/9. But hey, it was full auto, I could rock and roll 30 rounds away in like two seconds, and I owned it.

[_Sethbag]

Let's see. A guy, or a family, is so desperate to be in the US that they sneak in past whatever border controls we have. Is that person not going to drive just because they haven't got a license? Hello, they didn't have a Visa to enter the country either, and that didn't stop them. If they're gonna be here despite our other laws prohibiting it, and if they're gonna be driving, I'd rather know who they are when they get pulled over or get arrested, or get into an accident, or whatever.

While I also would like to recover something when an illegal hits my car, I don't see why they'd have any motivation to get insurance in the first place. Since many don't have any money to begin with they don't have much to lose in an accident, but they have plenty to lose in paying insurance premiums (especially if insurance charges extra for illegals just as it charges extra for males and even more for males under tha age of 25).

You're probably right, which is why I've always carried the highest under- and uninsured motorist coverage that I possibly could. Still, I'd far rather we knew who hit me than that they slink off unidentified.

[_GoodK]

Um, "the browns" are the ones flooding the country by the millions. I served part of my mission in Santa Ana California. We'd knock on doors and see in some apartments there were two dozen Mexicans living on the floor. Oddly enough, they managed to all have a TV and VCR so we could play Church videos for them. When they are here illegally, criminal activity is not only an attractive lifestyle, it can become a necessity for survival. And what's worse, billions of potential revenues earned by illegal immigrants are sent back to their home countries, so it isn't like they are contributing or putting back much into our economy.

Plus billions being spent on educating illegal immigrant children, treating illegal immigrants in our emergency rooms, and jailing the criminal illegal immigrants.

If we just opened the borders entirely, do we really doubt that there is a single Mexican in Mexico who wouldn't be on his way? Are we prepared to absorb 100 million from Latin America?

What a horribly racist term you use, Kevin. Mexican. You make me sick.
(what shall we call people who reside in Mexico, Bob?)

I reiterate. You are a racist and a bigot -- "Mexicans" and Muslims. Why bother even talking to you? You've made up your mind on the basis of one's skin color.

Pulling the race card here is pathetic. I expect more from an educated man. It has nothing to do with race, it has everything to do with economics, security, and enforcing laws. Legal immigration is not up for debate. It's illegal immigration that is being contested.

[_Sethbag]

I'm all for educating the children of illegal immigrants. Sure, they ought not to be here, but they are, and it's not their fault. It's way better for everyone concerned if they grow up with an education, than grow up without one. It's probably a lot cheaper to educate them and give them a chance at a better future, than it is to pay for their prison accomodations when they resort to crime as a teenager or young adult. Which is probably about all they'll be able to do if we won't educate them at all when they're children.

And you don't want to treat wounded illegal immigrant children in emergency rooms? I'm sorry, Paco, but you're folks carried you across the Rio Grande on their wet backs, so you'll just have to take your broken arm back to the apartment you share with 30 others and let it heal up naturally. What?

For the record: I'm not for illegal immigrants being here. But they are here, and I am for treating them humanely, especially the children, because it's not their fault.

[_dartagnan]

Then Obama was pandering to the bigots.

Neither you nor Bob have explained how this is bigotry. Why would you give criminals a priviledge like driving? And by calling Obama a bigot you just called Hillary one too, since she has shifted her stance AGAIN.

CNN’s Candy Crowley…:
CROWLEY: If I wrote a story that said: "Absent a broad illegal immigration bill, Hillary Clinton agrees about giving driver's licenses to illegal immigrants," is that correct?
CLINTON: No. What I have said is that I support what governors are trying to do. And governors are on the front lines because of the failures to get comprehensive immigration reform. There are already eight states that issue driver's licenses without any verification of citizenship. That is a decision that the governors and legislatures and the people of those states have made. I understand…
CROWLEY: But you see why people think…
CLINTON: Well, but you know, Candy…
CROWLEY: … that you are not answering the question.
CLINTON: Well, but you know, Candy, well, but I think that if you go back and look at the complexity of this issue, I don’t think a lot of these hard questions lend themselves to raising your hand. And I know that that’s easier in a 30 second context to try to do.

So there you have it. Not only is Hillary a "bigot," she is a babbling idiot who can't seem to give a straight answer. She didn't have the latest poll information about how her immediate public felt about the matter, so she didn't know which position to take.

I'm OK with government issued ID (driver's license) for illegal immigrants, because at least we'd know who they were.

That's crazy logic. What's the difference between an illegal immigrant crashing into your car and an illegal immigrant with a drivers license? The one without a license will be put in jail for driving illegally. Local law enforcement doesn't detain illegals for being illegal, but they do detain people for breaking laws. All this is doing is making them immune to yet another law. Knowing their identity will take place when someone comes to bail them out.

I'm for insurance companies selling auto insurance to illegal immigrants too.

Ha! You think they want insurance? In Santa Ana, which is what we called little Mexico, insurance rates were OUTRAGEOUS for Californians. Why? Because illegals rarely had insurance but they were frequently involved in traffic accidents. Someone has to pay.

Sure, they're not supposed to be here, but when they crash into my car I still want to know who they are, and make sure I'm covered

But you won't be. You're not being practical. Have you ever lived among them? Because I have. For the most part they have no interest in learning English, and they care even less about buying car insurance. They don't want to get involved in anything that requires signatures or revealing to any companies who they are or where they live.

Let's see. A guy, or a family, is so desperate to be in the US that they sneak in past whatever border controls we have. Is that person not going to drive just because they haven't got a license?

Of course not. But by driving illegally they will be far more cautious because they know if they are pulled over without a license, they go to jail.

And the hilarious thing is, whose coattails did George W. Bush ride? He would never have been anything at all in government if his daddy hadn't been George H. W. Bush, and anyone who disputes that ought to be laughed out of town. And Hillary's apparently way, way smarter than GWB.

I think they are both a couple of idiots.

Bob chimes in...

I reiterate. You are a racist and a bigot -- "Mexicans" and Muslims.

Sticks and stones, luv. You have never demonstrated any of this nonsense, which is why you always have to fall back on this lame cop out every time. I lived with Mexicans and Brazilians. I learned their languages. I'm married to one. I have dual citizenship and so do my children. I obey the laws. But the fact is illegal aliens are creating havok in our society and it shouldn't be taboo to talk about it. The funny thing is, many Brazilians are reasonable about this and actually agree with me.

Why bother even talking to you?

Because it provides you with an opportunity to look smarter than you appear. BEcause maybe you might sound more credible if you backed up your assertions with demonstration via argument? You cannot even debate successfully on the internet. And the reason you don't with me is because you lose. Which is why you had to remove your blog shortly after I trounced on you for breaking every branch on the stupid tree.

You've made up your mind on the basis of one's skin color.

Which color is that? Brown, as is my Cherokee grandmother? Or olive, as in my Brazilian wife's skin?

You're an idiot Bob. You always revert to this when you realize you cannot support your liberal rantings.

[_ozemc]

I'm all for educating the children of illegal immigrants. Sure, they ought not to be here, but they are, and it's not their fault. It's way better for everyone concerned if they grow up with an education, than grow up without one. It's probably a lot cheaper to educate them and give them a chance at a better future, than it is to pay for their prison accomodations when they resort to crime as a teenager or young adult. Which is probably about all they'll be able to do if we won't educate them at all when they're children.

And you don't want to treat wounded illegal immigrant children in emergency rooms? I'm sorry, Paco, but you're folks carried you across the Rio Grande on their wet backs, so you'll just have to take your broken arm back to the apartment you share with 30 others and let it heal up naturally. What?

For the record: I'm not for illegal immigrants being here. But they are here, and I am for treating them humanely, especially the children, because it's not their fault.

That sounds good, Sethbag, and I'm all for it, but, in addition to treating them humanely, we should send the whole family back once we do fix the broken arm. Get in line with the rest who do it legally.

[_dartagnan]

What a horribly racist term you use, Kevin. Mexican. You make me sick.
(what shall we call people who reside in Mexico, Bob?)

Well obviously we should refer to them as the unfortunately oppressed.

Mexicans usually get pissed off if you call them anything else.

[Tpearl]

Then Obama was pandering to the bigots.

Neither you nor Bob have explained how this is bigotry. Why would you give criminals a privilege like driving? And by calling Obama a bigot you just called Hillary one too, since she has shifted her stance AGAIN.

Because they're going to drive anyway, and it would be better for everyone else on the road if they had to pass the tests and demonstrate that they actually know how to do it, than for them to just drive around anyhow, untrained. And it would be better for us all if we could identify them when we needed to, for example if they got pulled over, or into an accident, or whatever.

Kevin, these folks entered the country without the proper legal documentation. What makes you think they won't decide to drive just because they don't have the proper documentation?

[edit: we cross-posted, and I can see now that you believe they will drive anyhow, but they'll actually be more careful drivers because they're afraid of getting busted for not having a license. I don't really agree with that. I'd rather make sure they know the laws of the road and demonstrate competence.]

Would you agree that it would be better for illegals to go through the official process of verifying that they have been trained and are familiar with the laws that govern the road, and so forth, than for them to drive around without this?

ps: by the way, I live in the Phoenix metropolitan area. Let nobody say I don't live in an area with a lot of illegal immigrants.