Romney loses in Florida to McCain...

[_ozemc]

What a horribly racist term you use, Kevin. Mexican. You make me sick.
(what shall we call people who reside in Mexico, Bob?)

Well obviously we should refer to them as the unfortunately oppressed.

Mexicans usually get pissed off if you call them anything else.

How about something like "Legally challenged"?

[_GoodK]

I'm all for educating the children of illegal immigrants. Sure, they ought not to be here, but they are, and it's not their fault. It's way better for everyone concerned if they grow up with an education, than grow up without one. It's probably a lot cheaper to educate them and give them a chance at a better future, than it is to pay for their prison accomodations when they resort to crime as a teenager or young adult. Which is probably about all they'll be able to do if we won't educate them at all when they're children.

And you don't want to treat wounded illegal immigrant children in emergency rooms? I'm sorry, Paco, but you're folks carried you across the Rio Grande on their wet backs, so you'll just have to take your broken arm back to the apartment you share with 30 others and let it heal up naturally. What?

For the record: I'm not for illegal immigrants being here. But they are here, and I am for treating them humanely, especially the children, because it's not their fault.

I'm not advocating refusing health care to them, just simply pointing out what a monumental expense illegal immigration is. I think as humans we have an ethical responsibility to help the sick and weak. I simply advocate not letting them come here illegally in the first place, forcing us (tax-payers) to provide them with free health care. They can and should help absorb the costs of living in a country like ours. Educating them is a tough call. It seems like another incentive to break the law, and it is hurting children of parents who came here legally. Maybe if our schools could accomodate them, but so far they have proven unable to do so.

[_Jason Bourne]

And her platform stinks. It basicaly consists of the same-old tired liberal views of tax and spend.

You worship the God of Talk Radio, obviously.

The Bush administration has done more to Spend (perhaps not tax) than any other president. Bill Clinton, by contrast, was one of the best fiscal presidents we have ever had -- reduced or eliminated agricultural subsidies; reduced welfare expense.

As far as taxing the rich -- who cares? Why shouldn't they pay? I say soak 'em, and soak 'em big.

rcrocket

Well Bob

One thing is for sure. Politically you are certainly out of step with the majority of the saints. Not that I have a problem with this. My current and former SP are politically liberal. They are fine fellows. The one GA I know personally is also a democrat.

[_dartagnan]

Kevin, these folks entered the country without the proper legal documentation. What makes you think they won't decide to drive just because they don't have the proper documentation?

I don't think you read my reasoning above. My intent is not to get them off the roads. You're right, they're going to drive anyway. My point is that without a license, they go to jail if they are involved in an accident. With a license, the officer just writes them up a ticket and then they run away, and then they go purchase another illegal social security card for $40 on the black market, and then get another DL using whatever name is on that. The illegal alien is never going to be held accountable for the damages in accidents.

The best thing is for them to go to jail, in which case the local law enforcement should communicate with INS officials. They should expect all residents to produce valid identification before leaving the jail. This should be standard fare. This is actually a simple way of solving the problem; capturing illegals via traffic incidents, gang activity etc.,. But at this time local law enforcement doesn't consider it their job to report illegals to the INS, and they don't. I think they should be required to.

[_Sethbag]

I'm not advocating refusing health care to them, just simply pointing out what a monumental expense illegal immigration is. I think as humans we have an ethical responsibility to help the sick and weak. I simply advocate not letting them come here illegally in the first place, forcing us (tax-payers) to provide them with free health care. They can and should help absorb the costs of living in a country like ours. Educating them is a tough call. It seems like another incentive to break the law, and it is hurting children of parents who came here legally. Maybe if our schools could accomodate them, but so far they have proven unable to do so.

Ok, give them a reasonable path to legalization, and start collecting taxes on the money they earn. Integrate them fully into the economy. But no, that's "amnesty", so it's a non-starter. It's a no-win situation. Like I said, I'm not in favor of their coming in illegally. But they're here, and we need to do something pragmatic and practical about it, and I don't see refusing to educate the children of illegals as being a humane or pragmatic solution to the problem.

[_Jason Bourne]

Federal outlays - including non-defense related spending - has increased during the Bush administration more than any presidency since FDR. This occurred while cutting taxes, leading to massive budget deficits. And that's not including the upcoming structural problems in entitlement programs for the elderly vs. the tax base. He literally has been one of the least fiscally conservative presidents in US history. He was enabled by a Republican congress for almost the entire course of his administration. To criticize Democrats as the "tax and spend" party seems shortsighted at this point. It's better than "Spend, spend some more and worry about the funds later" approach. The Republicans should have squandered away whatever reputation for fiscal responsibility they once enjoyed. At this point, talking about those crazy tax and spend liberals sounds more like a bumper-sticker slogan than something someone can say having given the matter a modicum of thought.

There is no question this administration and the republicans in congress over the past 8 years have abandoned their core values.

[_Jason Bourne]

You just dished out the typical talking points but nothing changes the fact that she is a failure and a liberal socialist. She rode the coat tails of her husband. That is what history is showing us.

She failed in her effort to get universal health care while an advisor to Bill Clinton. She has really failed at little else and has been a wildly successful workhorse in the Senate. She wields power; what she says goes. There are few to no senators with more influence and knowledge of the federal government.

As far as her being a "socialist," that is just a label with no meaning.

Is she a better debater than Obama? No. But she has demonstrated an ability to govern better than any of the candidates -- except for perhaps McCain who has a good track record of "socialist" legislation.

Let me guess -- you support Ron Paul.

When I look at my views on the issues I constantly am closest first to Romney and next to Hillary.

[_GoodK]

Ok, give them a reasonable path to legalization, and start collecting taxes on the money they earn. Integrate them fully into the economy. But no, that's "amnesty", so it's a non-starter. It's a no-win situation. Like I said, I'm not in favor of their coming in illegally. But they're here, and we need to do something pragmatic and practical about it, and I don't see refusing to educate the children of illegals as being a humane or pragmatic solution to the problem.

It's not the United States' responsibility to accomadate every citizen of another country who decides they don't like the country they live in. It's also not reasonable to expect us to educate the uneducated residents of another country on our dime. Perhaps their respective political leaders should be held accountable for this task. They never will be as long as we do their job for them.

[_Sethbag]

Ok, give them a reasonable path to legalization, and start collecting taxes on the money they earn. Integrate them fully into the economy. But no, that's "amnesty", so it's a non-starter. It's a no-win situation. Like I said, I'm not in favor of their coming in illegally. But they're here, and we need to do something pragmatic and practical about it, and I don't see refusing to educate the children of illegals as being a humane or pragmatic solution to the problem.

It's not the United States' responsibility to accomadate every citizen of another country who decides they don't like the country they live in. It's also not reasonable to expect us to educate the uneducated residents of another country on our dime. Perhaps their respective political leaders should be held accountable for this task. They never will be as long as we do their job for them.

Like I said, we need a practical and pragmatic solution. Is it the United States' responsibility to educate the citizens of a foreign country? No, I'll grant that. But guess what? These citizens of a foreign country happen to be living in America, and they're probably going to stay for a while. We're going to have to deal with them one way or another. We can educate the children and hope they have some way of "going legal" when they grow up and make a better life for themselves and their own future children, or we can pay $30k a year to house them in prison when they turn to the only option we've left open for them, which is a life of crime. Which would you prefer?

Seriously, if some small children are taken to this country by their illegal immigrant parents and grow up in America and get through their adolescence and teenage years with no formal education, exactly what do you imagine will become of them? Would you rather have them running around still not speaking English and being utterly ignorant and illiterate, with almost no possibility of a decent life, or would you rather have them speaking good English and being smart and educated and prepared to contribute somehow to the society they live amongst?

Again, I don't support illegal immigration. But they're here, there always will be some level of illegal immigration here, and the situation presents us with a bunch of practical, real-life problems and choices. I'm for the more humane and pragmatic choices, and against the more dogmatic and inhumane ones.

[_dartagnan]

== Seriously, if some small children are taken to this country by their illegal immigrant parents and grow up in America and get through their adolescence and teenage years with no formal education, exactly what do you imagine will become of them? Would you rather have them running around still not speaking English and being utterly ignorant and illiterate, with almost no possibility of a decent life, or would you rather have them speaking good English and being smart and educated and prepared to contribute somehow to the society they live amongst?

And you think that's going to happen in the American public school system? Many of these kids have that opportunity already, but do nothing with it. Coming from a Mexican culture, living in California and hanging out in poor ghettos where Spanish is the primary language, seems like heaven for these folks. Kids won't force themselves to go to school.

== But they're here, there always will be some level of illegal immigration here, and the situation presents us with a bunch of practical, real-life problems and choices. I'm for the more humane and pragmatic choices, and against the more dogmatic and inhumane ones.

Last I checked, nobody is proposing execution. What makes it complicated is when they cross the border blend in with scoeity and then have kids. The kids become citizens instantly and it isn't their fault where they were born.

The answer is less immigration. There should be a cap on how many immigrants we're willing to integrate into society legally. The number should be zero for illegal immigrants.