Biden's Economy?

[Vēritās]

Biden's approval jumped from 39 to 45% in latest Rasmussen Poll, which usually leans Republican.

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/epoll ... -7320.html

[Gadianton]

How do people know that for sure?

I got it from a recent study. I didn't link it, maybe later. I get tired of being link boy for right-wingers who won't look something up before opening their mouths.

have your kids on medicaid, medicare, social security, food stamps, section 8 housing, ad infinitum so that Kevin can pay you lower wages...FICA...and we wonder why..

Where is your cost-benefit analysis showing illegals in aggregate contribute less than they take, or that they are a substantial drain on our resources? My compassion ends where situations become horribly unsustainable. If we're bleeding uncontrollably due to illegal immigration, then I'll stand with you at the border to secure it.

The gradual erosion of the middle class and all the downward pressure that you and I both experience financially is a story about the wealthy in this country, and their connections to politics to see to their interests. It has nothing to do with the poor and illegals not pulling their weight.

As for legal immigration, the problem isn't just Republicans. It's a situation that I don't think will ever have a fix. The reason is less about ideology and more about legalism. Those who immigrate illegally and fill necessary jobs that your kids will never do don't have extensive personal documentation. The US wants birth certificates, background checks (criminal, schools attended, jobs etc), bank accounts, vaccination records (right-wingers shouldn't care about that one), and Trump wants a civics test and whatever else; never going to get a process set up that depends on all of this to work for the large numbers we need to bring over for processing fish and poultry, picking fruit, changing sheets in hotels, and so on. When somebody comes to the border with no documentation, it's "does not compute" for a bureaucracy. "It's better to ask forgiveness than ask permission" is especially true in a bureaucracy that's well aware of it's problems, but can't even think about how to think about trying to fix them. Lowering requirements to about nothing would decrease the chaos and crime involved in people coming over, and allow greater control over the situation in general, but in a society underpinned by boxes and checkmarks, there's no way to do it. A big part of this is deniability. The de facto solution is to turn a blind eye to illegal immigration to the extent it's mutually beneficial, and maintain deniability for anything negative about the arrangement.

[Hawkeye]

I got it from a recent study. I didn't link it, maybe later. I get tired of being link boy for right-wingers who won't look something up before opening their mouths.

I meant how do you even know for sure how many illegal immigrants are in the country?

Where is your cost-benefit analysis showing illegals in aggregate contribute less than they take, or that they are a substantial drain on our resources? My compassion ends where situations become horribly unsustainable. If we're bleeding uncontrollably due to illegal immigration, then I'll stand with you at the border to secure it.

Some illegal immigrants probably contribute to the economy. Some do not. Do you believe it is immoral to not allow people into the country that can't/won't contribute?

The gradual erosion of the middle class and all the downward pressure that you and I both experience financially is a story about the wealthy in this country, and their connections to politics to see to their interests. It has nothing to do with the poor and illegals not pulling their weight.

Not even anything to do with the wealthy taking advantage of the cheap labor of poor illegals and helping to undercut the wages of native born Americans?

Those who immigrate illegally and fill necessary jobs that your kids will never do

Maybe my kids will never do those jobs for the rest of their lives if they can help it. Guess what. Illegal immigrants don't want to do those jobs for the rest of their lives either. If an employer just plans to lock the immigrants into that kind of job for the rest of their lives, how much better is that than what wealthy southern planters did? I gurantee you that future generations will bear the blame for it much in the same way we bear the blame for what happened to blacks in the antebellum south. Maybe we'd be better off putting every unmotivated American high school student into these jobs starting in ninth grade until they work their way out.

My parents and grandparents did those jobs in the summer or early in life. They turned out a lot better than millenials have.

As for legal immigration, the problem isn't just Republicans. It's a situation that I don't think will ever have a fix. The reason is less about ideology and more about legalism. Those who immigrate illegally and fill necessary jobs that your kids will never do don't have extensive personal documentation. The US wants birth certificates, background checks (criminal, schools attended, jobs etc), bank accounts, vaccination records (right-wingers shouldn't care about that one), and Trump wants a civics test and whatever else; never going to get a process set up that depends on all of this to work for the large numbers we need to bring over for processing fish and poultry, picking fruit, changing sheets in hotels, and so on. When somebody comes to the border with no documentation, it's "does not compute" for a bureaucracy. "It's better to ask forgiveness than ask permission" is especially true in a bureaucracy that's well aware of it's problems, but can't even think about how to think about trying to fix them. Lowering requirements to about nothing would decrease the chaos and crime involved in people coming over, and allow greater control over the situation in general, but in a society underpinned by boxes and checkmarks, there's no way to do it. A big part of this is deniability. The de facto solution is to turn a blind eye to illegal immigration to the extent it's mutually beneficial, and maintain deniability for anything negative about the arrangement.

Interesting theory

[canpakes]

Maybe my kids will never do those jobs for the rest of their lives if they can help it. Guess what. Illegal immigrants don't want to do those jobs for the rest of their lives either. If an employer just plans to lock the immigrants into that kind of job for the rest of their lives, how much better is that than what wealthy southern planters did?

An employer cannot really lock an illegal immigrant into a job on this side of the border. Choices still exist.

In contrast, antebellum US slavery offered an individual no choice as to who owned them and what they were forced to do.

There’s a difference, don’t you think?

I gurantee you that future generations will bear the blame for it much in the same way we bear the blame for what happened to blacks in the antebellum south. Maybe we'd be better off putting every unmotivated American high school student into these jobs starting in ninth grade until they work their way out.

Besides that being counter to how capitalism and the free market in America work, how do you propose to graduate those ‘unmotivated American high school students’ out of their forced labor arrangement?

[ajax18]

Elizabeth Warren actually said the quiet part out loud in her 2019 campaign. "Inflation fears are overblown." She's more in line with Kevin Graham on modern monetary theory and the virtues of helicopter cash.

Inflation is a clever way to raise taxes to pay for Bernie Sanders programs and still claim you only tax the rich. The voters brought into it in 1976. They brought the same line of crap in 2020.

The Dems knew their policies would result in inflation. They may not be admitting it now (except Veritas) but this economy is exactly what they wanted. This is a Democrat econony, not a Doc Cam centrist economy but an Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez Bernie Sanders democratic socialist economy.

[Vēritās]

Elizabeth Warren actually said the quiet part out loud in her 2019 campaign. "Inflation fears are overblown." She's more in line with Kevin Graham on modern monetary theory and the virtues of helicopter cash.

You mean the five trillion that was dumped into the system by Trump and his policies?

In 2019 inflation was nothing to be afraid of because the RIght Wing theory about it had been exposed. When Obama passed his record breaking stimulus all we heard was that we were headed towards imminent inflation, even "hyperinflation." Instead we got deflation. Increased government spending doesn't cause inflation. Never did. It is always consumer spending that drives it.

Inflation is a clever way to raise taxes to...

Inflation is a natural product of the free market, it isn't a strategy. Inflation doesn't go up or down because of any politician's policy intended it to do so. You should get educated instead of constantly doubling down on stupid talking points that have been debunked ad nauseum here and elsewhere.

The Dems knew their policies would result in inflation.

Idiotic commentary again. Dems policies didn't cause inflation, it was a perfect storm of supply chain bottle necks and a slew of idiotic policy decisions by Trump that flooded the economy with easy money. This has been proved over and over, and all you got is this dumb talking point about "Dem policies" while unable to name a single one.

They may not be admitting it now (except Veritas) but this economy is exactly what they wanted.

An economy with record job growth and wage growth? Yes, it sure does beat the alternative to what Trump left us. You're upset because everything is heading in the right direction now and you're panicking because you don't know how long you can keep selling this lie about "Dems policies" and inflation.

[Gadianton]

Some illegal immigrants probably contribute to the economy. Some do not. Do you believe it is immoral to not allow people into the country that can't/won't contribute?

Some probably contribute to the economy? Ajax, seriously.

No, I don't believe it is immoral to not allow people into the economy who can't/won't contribute. I also don't believe it is immoral to not allow people into the economy who want to work. If you want ammo against liberals, look at Canada or Sweden, try to immigrate to those countries and see how easy it is. Countries with big social welfare systems must be extra vigilant about keeping people out. If you want to go to Canada, you have to prove that you're healthy so as not to take advantage of socialized health care. And you can't let everyone who wants to work in either. But when you look at the situation we have right now, where there's more jobs open then applicants, where there's severe shortages in industries like construction and it's clear that we're not going to fill those jobs internally, then why not?

However...

If what you really meant is that we should only ever let in people ready to work, and never let anybody in who isn't working, then yes, that would be immoral. There have to be other considerations.

Not even anything to do with the wealthy taking advantage of the cheap labor of poor illegals and helping to undercut the wages of native born Americans?

No. The effect isn't that great. The effect of outsourcing is tremendous, however. Trump didn't stand up to the corporations that are really keeping American workers down.

Maybe my kids will never do those jobs for the rest of their lives if they can help it. Guess what. Illegal immigrants don't want to do those jobs for the rest of their lives either.

How do you know? Some people are fine living day-to-day. Are you saying that no coal miners in West Virginia don't want to be coal miners their whole life? Your kids doing construction for a summer isn't going to solve the labor shortage. You need career blue-collar workers.

If an employer just plans to lock the immigrants into that kind of job for the rest of their lives, how much better is that than what wealthy southern planters did? I gurantee you that future generations will bear the blame for it much in the same way we bear the blame for what happened to blacks in the antebellum south.

I'll go with Canpakes' answer.

Maybe we'd be better off putting every unmotivated American high school student into these jobs starting in ninth grade until they work their way out.

You know, in the former Soviet Union, it was illegal not to have a job. Isn't that what you really want, Ajax?

My parents and grandparents did those jobs in the summer or early in life. They turned out a lot better than millenials have.

They worked in a fish processing plant? Again, whether its beef, fish, or poultry, strawberries or oranges, gardening, or washing sheets in hotels, or construction, we're going to need a whole lot more than teenagers just looking to get started in life before moving on.

[Themis]

If you want ammo against liberals, look at Canada or Sweden, try to immigrate to those countries and see how easy it is. Countries with big social welfare systems must be extra vigilant about keeping people out. If you want to go to Canada, you have to prove that you're healthy so as not to take advantage of socialized health care.

Both countries have significantly higher rates of immigration. I believe Canada has over double the US.

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

If you want ammo against liberals, look at Canada or Sweden, try to immigrate to those countries and see how easy it is. Countries with big social welfare systems must be extra vigilant about keeping people out. If you want to go to Canada, you have to prove that you're healthy so as not to take advantage of socialized health care.

Both countries have significantly higher rates of immigration. I believe Canada has over double the US.

I think if we were to magically swap geographical positions Canada’s “rate of immigration” would also magically go up.

- Doc

[Gadianton]

Both countries have significantly higher rates of immigration. I believe Canada has over double the US.

That's because they are smart, not because they are generous. Euro-world has a worse reproduction problem than the US. The only way to support an aging population in a social welfare state with no kids is by immigration.

A significantly higher rate of immigration doesn't contradict Ajax's(1)'s logic of "bring in the healthy ones who will work and then close the ark." It does contradict Ajax(2)'s logic of "don't let anybody in because they're taking the fish processing jobs my kids were going to work this summer."

It's possible that there are all kinds of loopholes and Canada ends up bringing in lots of unhealthy people not working, I haven't looked into it that much. But immigrating legally, following the letter of the law, is stricter in Canada than the US, mainly because of the health requirements.