Discussion about Kevin's methods re Plagiarism

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_marg

Post by _marg »

dartagnan wrote:
Of course Kevin you will resort to ad homs.

That isn't an ad hom. I guess you didn't pay attention to Tarski when he was educating you and JAK on the proper meaning of the term.


Let me educate you Kevin, ad hominem is not a fallacy. It often is when it is used to shift focus off an argument and onto the person. I didn't mention "fallacy" so no matter what any of your attacks are ad hominem. Calling me an idiot is ad hom..no matter what. Now we could argue over whether you used it fallaciously and I know your posting style now is that you lack integrity so no matter what i say to support that your comment was fallacious you would argue and deny, hence I'm not going to waste my time doing that. Suffice it to say that if you made a personal attack which had nothing to do with argument but was to shift focus off the argument then you would have argued with ad hom fallaciously. And if you are going to use that thread, and Tarski have the intellectual honesty of linking to the post.



previously: Now if you were upfront that you relied on spencer, I'll give you the benefit of doubt, please quote and link. thanks

You're desperately trying to make some kind of parallel with the plagiarism of your internet man, JAK.


I'm not trying to make any comparision between your alleged attack on JAK that he plagiarized and your plagiarism which I am presenting evidence for. You wish to shift focus onto JAK, so as to not acknowledge whether you plagiarized. Whether or not JAK plagiarized is irrelevant to whether or not you did. No Kevin the focus is you. And the request I made which you have not addressed and which you apparently wish to ignore is Now if you were upfront that you relied on spencer, I'll give you the benefit of doubt, please quote and link/
_marg

Post by _marg »

Scottie wrote:
marg wrote:
Scottie wrote:[I think this is better suited of the off-topic forum]


I thought that as well Scottie. Except if Kevin has presented an argument on this forum and he plagiarized and that can be established it affects his argumentation in this forum. In addition Kevin has written numerous posts of attacks on JAK, which are in this forum and he is deliberately attempting to poison the well and has admitted that. So it does relate to this forum. Added to that that Kevin used the thread set up I believe by Shades discussing JAK's posting style and that is in this forum. So it would be a double standard to move this and yet to have had that thread stay for as long as it has.


[I moved the JAK thread as well.]


Well that is terrible. Now you jump in and start moving things. Okay then I'll have to move the entire thread over to the terristial forum.
_dartagnan
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Post by _dartagnan »

I'm not trying to make any comparision between your alleged attack on JAK that he plagiarized and your plagiarism which I am presenting evidence for.


Of course you are. Stop insulting everyone's intelligence. Everyone watching this knows exactly why you are doing this. You are still upset over your man's credentials being torn to shreds while you were desperately trying to save him. The issue was JAK's plagiarism which I presented evidence for and you consistently refused to respond. It is an indisputable fact that he plagiarized.

What you now present is not an example of plagiarism. This thread is evidence of that. People can read the thread themselves and see it is not plagiarism. Nobody here agrees with you that I "stole" ideas and "implied" that they appeared in my brain without actually learning about them elsewhere.

You wish to shift focus onto JAK


No, you wished to shift focus off of JAK. And that is all you're doing now.

so as to not acknowledge whether you plagiarized.


No, I ackowledge your poor attempt at a case for plagiarism, but I reject it as does everyone else.

Whether or not JAK plagiarized is irrelevant to whether or not you did.


And whether or not I plagiarized is irrelevant to the fact that JAK did.

No Kevin the focus is you.


Well of course it is. Anyone can start a thread attacking someone and insist the focus has always been that. You're just pissed off because I keep demonstrating that the man your worship is a fool. Everyone who debates the guy on anything ends up agreeing.

And the request I made which you have not addressed and which you apparently wish to ignore is Now if you were upfront that you relied on spencer, I'll give you the benefit of doubt, please quote and link/


What the hell? Quote and link WHAT? It is right there in this very thread in the same exact post you're whining about. I provided three citations to three different people.

To reasonable minds, this alone proves beyond a doubt that I never "implied" these ideas were mine and mine alone. You're just acting like an idiot as everyone can see.
“All knowledge of reality starts from experience and ends in it...Propositions arrived at by purely logical means are completely empty as regards reality." - Albert Einstein
_marg

Post by _marg »

dartagnan wrote:
I'm not trying to make any comparision between your alleged attack on JAK that he plagiarized and your plagiarism which I am presenting evidence for.


Of course you are. Stop insulting everyone's intelligence. Everyone watching this knows exactly why you are doing this. You are still upset over your man's credentials being torn to shreds while you were desperately trying to save him. The issue was JAK's plagiarism which I presented evidence for and you consistently refused to respond. It is an indisputable fact that he plagiarized.


Actually Kevin you made a big deal over plagiarism and wanted to argue it with me. Perhaps that is the reason that out of the blue without even thinking of the board it came to me how I had noticed you copying the words of others.

I don't like intellectual dishonestly and you are full of it. I don't care that you are religious. I actually used to think you were a good critical thinker..boy was I wrong. Hadn't read or followed enough of your posts.

What you now present is not an example of plagiarism. This thread is evidence of that. People can read the thread themselves and see it is not plagiarism. Nobody here agrees with you that I "stole" ideas and "implied" that they appeared in my brain without actually learning about them elsewhere.


Nobody here agrees. Look Kevin while that might be the case, no one has voice that yet. And again this just shows your intellectual dishonesty. There is a logical fallacy you've just made..don't remember the name but essentially speaking on behalf of others who haven't spoken. And in addition even if let's say 1- people came to your side ...this is not exactly a forum in which one can automatically assume all participants are objective.

previously: You wish to shift focus onto JAK

kevin:
No, you wished to shift focus off of JAK. And that is all you're doing now.


LOL..no kevin you are the focus. You established that you were dead set against plagiarism and yet you commited it worse than anyone on this board that I can recall. the very things which is abhorrent about fraudulent plagiarism is that it speaks to the person's integrity that they would attempt to pass off their words and ideas of others as if their own.

previous: so as to not acknowledge whether you plagiarized.[/quote]

Kevin
No, I ackowledge your poor attempt at a case for plagiarism, but I reject it as does everyone else.


That doesn't surprise me kevin, given your tract record I don't expect you to be honest, why should I expect you to start now? But the evidence I presented is there..if anyone wants to take a serious look at it.

previous: Whether or not JAK plagiarized is irrelevant to whether or not you did.

And whether or not I plagiarized is irrelevant to the fact that JAK did.


LOL...you don't get it...your plagiarism speaks to your dishonesty. If JAK and I only say if for argument sake with you, plagiarized it doesn't diminish your actions. My focus in on your actions. I know JAK's high integrity which I've observed over years of reading his posts.

previous: No Kevin the focus is you.

Kevin
Well of course it is. Anyone can start a thread attacking someone and insist the focus has always been that. You're just pissed off because I keep demonstrating that the man your worship is a fool. Everyone who debates the guy on anything ends up agreeing.


Well Kevin I do acknowledge than many do not like to debate with JAK. In fact I don't. I have in the past and usually he eventually would show me through argumentation that I was wrong. But I never took it as a personal insult. And I don't focus on process. His debate style is that he is thorough, he stays focused on the issues, doesn't play games, doesn't take out of context what others say..and he is focussed on reaching a goal of mutual understanding. And one other JAK has never mentioned his credentials. I brought it up in that thread with Tarski because Tarski was using argument from authority. He wasn't the one with the most knowledge on logic and debate in that thread based on his education.

And the request I made which you have not addressed and which you apparently wish to ignore is Now if you were upfront that you relied on spencer, I'll give you the benefit of doubt, please quote and link/


What the hell? Quote and link WHAT? It is right there in this very thread in the same exact post you're whining about. I provided three citations to three different people.

Gosh you play dumb and that is a compliment because if you are that dumb it wouldn't be flattering. You mention Spencer once and quote him and say something to the effect that he has a point with that one particular quote. Everything else that you paraphrase and quote you don't acknowledge is the same as what Spencer uses. Sure you gave Aquinas recognition but it was Spencer who used him in the argument and quoted Aquinas..then you go and use that same quote and same ideas. Spencer quotes Stark and then you go an quote that same quote from Stark. Look kevin it boils down to outright plagiarism which I'm sure you'd deny ..deny ..deny. But you know if you had acknowledged Spencer for all those ideas you'd have no problem linking to that acknowledgement.

To reasonable minds, this alone proves beyond a doubt that I never "implied" these ideas were mine and mine alone. You're just acting like an idiot as everyone can see.


kevin to various people in the thread you express yourself as if you are presenting your own ideas. I've already quoted you on that. Look you can deny all you want. But between you and me what you did was a perfect example of plagiarism..exactly why people look upon it so abhorrently. It speak to the values a person has. All you had to do in that thread was acknowledge that the ideas, sources of quotes and argument was based upon Spencer's book Religon of Peace. And doing so was important because you were using the creative mind of another person and attempting to get personal credit for it. Recognition of your thinking abilities from co participants on a message board.
_dartagnan
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Post by _dartagnan »

Actually Kevin you made a big deal over plagiarism and wanted to argue it with me.

Now you're just lying. You know perfectly well what the issue was. The issue was your persistent defense of JAK's plagiarism. You circumvented any obligation to make an argument for that defense, by trying to shift focus onto me.

Well, nobody is buying your argument. I don't even think you do. This is just a posting marathon for you. You're clearly in defcon 2 now.
I don't like intellectual dishonestly and you are full of it.

But you cannot demonstrate it, and everyone knows it. Even you.
I don't care that you are religious.

No, you only care that I upset your man. Hell, I wasn't even the one who busted him for plagiarism. Gadianton and Moniker did. All I did was raise the issue every time that you tried to blow it off and continue to state that he was a professor and a brilliant man. The guy is a moron.
I actually used to think you were a good critical thinker..boy was I wrong. Hadn't read or followed enough of your posts.

And you think your opinion carries any weight here, especially after this recent nonsense?

Nobody here agrees. Look Kevin while that might be the case, no one has voice that yet.

They have to me. And Moniker and Silentkid have publicly voiced their disagreement with yoru argument. So who agrees?
And again this just shows your intellectual dishonesty. There is a logical fallacy you've just made..don't remember the name but essentially speaking on behalf of others who haven't spoken.

Stop mimicking JAK. He always finds a creative way to call any refutation he can't handle, some kind of fallacy. Neither of you understand fallacies well at all. An appeal to majority is a fallacy but only if you're using it to say one's argument isn't true, because the majority doesn't agree. I'm not saying that. I'm simply noting that your argument isn't convincing anyone. It shoudl be a deterrent since that is the only reason you're here. You're trying to damage my credibility because youa re still pissed off that your man's has been destroyed.
And in addition even if let's say 1- people came to your side ...this is not exactly a forum in which one can automatically assume all participants are objective.

Not one. Two publicly and four privately.
You established that you were dead set against plagiarism

And I am. I am also dead set against anyone pretending to be a professor while plagiarizing the wiki for every argument he makes. You have not shown that I have plagiarized, even by the loosest definition.
yet you commited it worse than anyone on this board that I can recall

?????

Are you forgetting the fact that JAK copied almost an entire paragraph word for word, from a website he was obviously reading during his debate with tarski? He provided zero source.

All you have on me is the baseless assumption that people felt I "implied" that my knowledge on this stuff just appeared in my brain instantly, without having done any reading on my own, despite the fact that I provided three references. Why provided references at all if my intention is to make people think I read or rely on no one else as an authority?
I know JAK's high integrity which I've observed over years of reading his posts

Then how do you explain his blatant plagiarism? Ooooops. You walked right into that one. Time to evade again. We both know you'll never address it.
Well Kevin I do acknowledge than many do like to debate with JAK. In fact I don't. I have in the past and usually he eventually would show me through argumentation that I was wrong.

He got you hooked on all those colors, did he? I guess some kids require little persuasion.
You mention Spencer once and quote him and say something to the effect that he has a point with that one particular quote. Everything else that you paraphrase and quote you don't acknowledge is the same as what Spencer uses.

Nor would I need to. Apparently you are not at all familiar with scholarship, since this is the norm. Once a scholar references another scholar, it is implied that the immediate context is speaking of that scholar's position. But I guess you wouldn't have any idea about this since you're stuck living in internet wiki land.
Sure you gave Aquinas recognition but it was Spencer who used him in the argument and quoted Aquinas.

This is why you're an idiot. It doesn't matter if Spencer used him too. Spencer is his own man and he can use whoever the hell he wants. What you have to do is prove that I used a citation from someone else and claimed it was my own. You haven't even begun to build a case for this.

You know this too. You should have to be able to prove where I said this was my idea and mine alone, but instead you're telling me to show you where I said it wasn't mine alone? ANd then you highlight where I said, "What I am saying" as if this is proof of plagiarism?

What an idiot!

I am saying it. I never said I was the only one who said it, which is what you'd have to prove inorder to even begin a case for plagiarism. I have been saying it long before Spencer's book was even published. His book just came out last august for crying out loud. Go over to MADB and you can dig for posts about the same topic under my account, long before Spencer wrote about it. The idea that science owes a great deal to Christianity is not a new idea. I've been saying it for many years.

You simply don't understand plagiarism, even when you provide the definition. You have to assume "implication" first, which is why it is important to note that nobody inferred what you think I implied.

Only an idiot would think that someone who wrote so little in that post, who used three different sources, would have been trying to "imply" that those comments were not learned elsewhere. I mean it just boggles the mind that you could even think that.
“All knowledge of reality starts from experience and ends in it...Propositions arrived at by purely logical means are completely empty as regards reality." - Albert Einstein
_marg

Post by _marg »

dartagnan wrote:
Actually Kevin you made a big deal over plagiarism and wanted to argue it with me.

Now you're just lying. You know perfectly well what the issue was. The issue was your persistent defense of JAK's plagiarism. You circumvented any obligation to make an argument for that defense, by trying to shift focus onto me.


I presented an argument but not to you, that you didn't accept it is not my problem. There is good reason to not engage you.

Let's look at the exchange between you and I on this. After calling me a gimp in a post with a picture with the sole intent to insult, you write:

Kevin: Marg you're not even willing to defend your assertion that JAK doesn't plagiarize.

How intellectually honest is that? Every time we try to discuss it you jump ship. But then later you assert, as if factual, he never plagiarized.


next post by Kevin: Do you really think you're doing yourself any favors with these silly nonresponses?

Can you defend the charge or not? If you can, then do it.

If not, then shut the hell up about it. Stop asserting he is innocent if you're not going to back it up.


next post by Kevin: And what do you say about the evidence to the contrary?
Oooops.
Time to go silent again, like a good gimp


Do you indicate in any way shape or form that you are wanting to carry on an honest discussion. Of course not, so what is the point to discuss with you?

Look Kevin plagiarism is not solely about copying words. There must be dishonest intent. That was not present with JAK. Jak never implied those were his own thoughts and words. You on the other hand did. And unlike you, when Moniker pointed out that he must have got the information elsewhere he reasily acknowledged it. In addition it was facts Kevin, not like what you did which was present an entire argument based upon the creative work of another.

Kevin, you are just so full of it, so dishonest, that it's really stupid of me, to carry on with you. It really is. I take full credit for that stupidity.


Ok I just skimmed the rest of your post and you are so petty minded..going on still about JAK, telling me that because Moniker and silent kid agreed with you that everyone does or something along those lines.

All of this cont'd discussion is a tangent. The evidence is there for your plagiarism, it's in thread and what you say to deny is irrelevant.
_Yoda

Post by _Yoda »

Marg wrote:Well that is terrible. Now you jump in and start moving things.


He's a Moderator. That's his job.

Marg wrote: Okay then I'll have to move the entire thread over to the terristial forum.


You won't, and can't, move anything. You can copy/pate and provide links from other threads as easily in this section as you can in Terrestrial.

Although I probably would have left these threads alone, I respect Scottie's decision to move them. In the truest sense, neither one of these threads have to do with the topic of Mormonism. They are threads centered around individual posters' methods.

Shadow links have been left in the Terrestrial Forum, so both threads can be easily found here by anyone following these threads.
_marg

Post by _marg »

liz3564 wrote:
Marg wrote:Well that is terrible. Now you jump in and start moving things.


LIZ: He's a Moderator. That's his job.


What's that got to do with "that's terrible"? The point is that the thread discussing JAK's posting no moderator had a problem with and that was there for a while. But to Scott's his credit he moved both.

Marg wrote: Okay then I'll have to move the entire thread over to the terristial forum.


Liz: You won't, and can't, move anything. You can copy/pate and provide links from other threads as easily in this section as you can in Terrestrial.

I can and I will and I did do exactly as I stated. You are confusing which thread I'm talking about.

Liz:Although I probably would have left these threads alone, I respect Scottie's decision to move them. In the truest sense, neither one of these threads have to do with the topic of Mormonism. They are threads centered around individual posters' methods.

Correct to an extent, and I already acknowledged that in my reply to Scottie, however, when an individual states they are intent on harassing which in effect is what Kevin stated to me, and he's writing posts in the terrestial then his reasons his harassment remarks should be brought to light so to speak. So his harassment of JAK and then his harassment of me over plagiarism exposed that he commited fraudulent plagiarism and hasn't a leg to stand on if he continues to use that for harassment purposes.

Now while you are reading here I might as well say one other thing. In Kevin's tag line he is attempting to poison the well and harass me. He is quoting an ad hom fallacious remark made by Gad in a discussion, which should never have been allowed in the celestial forum in the first place under proper moderation and that tag line which originated as fallacious is now transferred to all Kevin's posts, ...including in the Celestial forum. It is part of every single message he writes and it shouldn't be there.

Liz:Shadow links have been left in the Terrestrial Forum, so both threads can be easily found here by anyone following these threads.

Again you misunderstand what thread I was referring to.
_Imwashingmypirate
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OED.com

Post by _Imwashingmypirate »

"1. The action or practice of taking someone else's work, idea, etc., and passing it off as one's own; literary theft.

1621 R. MONTAGU Diatribæ Hist. Tithes 23 Were you afraid to bee challenged for plagiarisme? 1716 M. DAVIES Athenæ Britannicæ II. To Rdr. 46 A good Plea to any Charge of Plagiarism or Satyrism. 1753 JOHNSON Adventurer No. 95 9 Nothing..can be more unjust than to charge an author with plagiarism merely because he..makes his personages act as others in like circumstances have done. 1820 W. HAZLITT Lect. Dramatic Lit. 257 If an author is once detected in borrowing, he will be suspected of plagiarism ever after. 1861 H. T. BUCKLE Hist. Civilisation Eng. II. vi. 542 A certain unity of design which is inconsistent with extensive plagiarism. 1884 J. TAIT Mind in Matter (1892) 183 Advanced languages are ‘evolved’ chiefly by plagiarism and by phonetic corruption. 1978 E. BLISHEN Sorry, Dad III. ii. 107, I..elected to copy a sketch from a book I'd borrowed from the public library. By doing so I broke all the rules. The work was supposed to be original. I remember now the loving unease with which I set about my plagiarism. 1994 H. BLOOM Western Canon II. ii. 75 Plagiarism is a legal distinction, not a literary one, just as the sacred and the secular form a political and religious distinction and are not literary categories at all.
2. A particular idea, piece of writing, design, etc., which has been plagiarized; an act or product of plagiary.

1780 S. LEE Chapter of Accidents Pref. p. iii, Conscious of my own originality, and imagining even my worst enemy, if he charged me with a plagiarism, would at least allow, while the subject was new to our stage, my only crime was in denying it.I returned the translated play, and mine lay dormant several years. 1797 Monthly Mag. 3 260 He found the..song..to be ‘a most flagrant plagiarism from Handel’. 1850 F. D. MAURICE Moral Philos. (ed. 2) I. 98 A Thaumaturgist whom they had created..to convince the world that the Christian church was a plagiarism. 1875 B. JOWETT tr. Plato Dialogues (ed. 2) I. p. xx, They are full of plagiarisms, inappropriately borrowed. 1903 H. KELLER Story of my Life I. xiv. 50 The two stories were so much alike in thought and language that it was evident Miss Canby's story had been read to me, and that mine wasa plagiarism. 1920 T. S. ELIOT Sacred Wood 115 This is..an echo rather than an imitation or a plagiarism. 1991 Music & Lett. 72 46 Although, however, there are certainly some common points of harmony, it is perhaps an exaggeration to describe Geminiani's minuet as a plagiarism." -- oed.com (Oxford English Dictionary).
Just punched myself on the face...
_Jersey Girl
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Post by _Jersey Girl »

For the record, it was I who asked Scottie to take a look at the two threads that were relocated and move them to the Off Topic if he thought it appropriate. I did so because neither of the threads had anything to do with Mormonism and didn't seem to fit in the Terrestrial Forum. Scottie took a look and relocated them.

I would have moved them both myself however, I was a participant in one of the threads and will not take action on a thread when that is the case.

Jersey Girl
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