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Droopy's Myths Debunked

Posted: Thu Dec 16, 2010 5:43 am
by _Kevin Graham
Droopy likes to relay myths created and propagated by the Right Wing propaganda machine while dismissing all refutations as leftist propaganda - even though his only documentation comes straight from the mouths of Right Wing bloggers at Americanthinker.org and the Right Wing billionaire funded institute at Heritage.

Myth #1

The Bush/congressional tax cuts vitalized the economy, created jobs, and sustained the economy


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Based on the Census Bureau Report for 2008, the Atlantic concluded in an article Closing the Book on the Bush Legacy:

On every major measurement, the Census Bureau report shows that the country lost ground during Bush's two terms. While Bush was in office, the median household income declined, poverty increased, childhood poverty increased even more, and the number of Americans without health insurance spiked. By contrast, the country's condition improved on each of those measures during Bill Clinton's two terms, often substantially.


As far as GDP growth goes, Bush's policies were hardly impressive:

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Economist David Johnston of Syracuse University offers a blistering critique of the Bush years at tax.com:

The tax cuts did not spur investment. Job growth in the George W. Bush years was one-seventh that of the Clinton years. Nixon and Ford did better than Bush on jobs. Wages fell during the last administration. Average incomes fell. The number of Americans in poverty, as officially measured, hit a 16-year high last year of 43.6 million, though a National Academy of Sciences study says that the real poverty figure is closer to 51 million. Food banks are swamped. Foreclosure signs are everywhere. Americans and their governments are drowning in debt....This is economic madness. It is policy divorced from empirical evidence. It is insanity because the policies are illusory and delusional. The evidence is in, and it shows beyond a shadow of a reasonable doubt that the 2001 and 2003 tax cuts failed to achieve the promised goals.


Myth #2

Droopy tries to fall back on Reagan to make his point about tax cuts:

Government revenue nearly doubled during the Reagan years in the eighties, for precisely this reason, dwarfing revenues under the Carter administration where rates were much higher.


If Droopy knew anything about tax history he wouldn't have to be told that Reagan actually raised taxes at times. According to Reagan's close friend, Sen. Alan Simpson,

In 1982, the Tax Equity and Fiscal Responsibility Act, that rolled back about a third of his ‘81 tax cuts, raised corporate tax rates, and to a lesser extent income tax rates. Raised taxes by almost 1 percent of GDP, which at that time was the largest percentage in peacetime increase ever.

[The] 1982 gas tax increase. [The] 1983 Greenspan commission — we know so well; [fellow commission member Alice Rivlin] remembers — we all … raised payroll taxes for lower and middle income households to higher than they were before Reagan’s ‘81 tax cuts. Then there was the 1984 deficit reduction tax.

Those are the big four. Then there was the Railroad Retirement Revenue Act, Consolidated Omnibus Budget of ‘85… ‘85…’87 Continuing Resolution, Omnibus Budget Reconciliation Act of ‘87, that was $8.6 billion


And then Krugman puts the Reagan myth into perspective:

The Reagan economy was a one-hit wonder. Yes, there was a boom in the mid-1980s, as the economy recovered from a severe recession. But while the rich got much richer, there was little sustained economic improvement for most Americans. By the late 1980s, middle-class incomes were barely higher than they had been a decade before — and the poverty rate had actually risen...Eventually productivity did take off — but even the Bush administration’s own Council of Economic Advisers dates the beginning of that takeoff to 1995


What Droopy also fails to acknowledge is that Clinton's economy saw similar growth after increasing taxes - so that fact alone refutes his pet theory that high taxes = lower revenues. Reagan also tripled the national debt from what it was under Carter, and then Bush senior came along and quadrupled it.

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Tax rates as high as 90% (but usually around 70%) since WWII up until Carter, is what helped drive down the deficit at such a fast pace. Reagan was also responsible for doubling the Federal deficit, and then Bush came along and tripled it. Clinton came along, increased taxes, which pushed down the deficit and gave us our first surplus in decades, and then Bush blew it all to hell within a few years of more tax cuts and stupid wars.

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Moreover, economists attribute the Reagan era recovery to the drop in interest rates, not tax cuts. The federal funds rate peaked at 20 percent in late May 1981 and dropped to 9.5 percent by mid-October 1982, while the discount rate peaked at 14 percent in early May 1981 and dropped to 9.5 percent in mid-October 1982. In 1983 the CBO declared: "Lower interest rates after mid-1982 permitted the recovery to begin... A dramatic decline in inflation, a fall in interest rates from levels that were extraordinarily high to levels that are merely high, and the stock market boom have contributed to the improvement in economic conditions." Even Reagan economist Michael Mussaagrees:

[dropping interest rates] "signal[ed] the beginning of what would become a four-and-a-half-year period of quite rapid monetary expansion. During this period, interest rates, both short and long term, would be driven significantly lower, and the U.S. economy would substantially recover from the devastation of both inflation and recession."


So it makes sense when Paul Krugman points out that: "Right now, the interest rate is zero. The Fed can't rescue us this time, and that's why we can't do the things we did in the '80s."

Oh, and before Droopy shoots back with the usual Right Wing excuse that Congress was to blame for Reagan's outrageous spending, the facts prove he requested more funding than what Congress was willing to appropriate:

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But don't expect to find out about this from anything published by Heritage! Because the evidence is clear that "Tax and spend Reagan" is what they'd call him today, if more of his worshipers were fully aware of his policies.

Myth #3

The higher marginal tax rates go, the less government revenue is generated, and the lower tax rates go, the more revenue flows to the treasury.


This claim is so idiotic and so easily refuted, one could easily provide a dozen economists rejecting that failed theory. In fact the demise of it is so well known it speaks volumes about just how selective Droopy's exposure to political commentary really is. Where has this retard been the past half decade, living in a cave listening to Glenn Beck? That is the only attention Art Laffer can seem to get anymore.

Of course shoving facts and expert opinion in Droopy's face will just trigger the usual dismissals, claiming "leftist" bias. So let's see how he handles the same opinion coming from conservative economists. N. Gregory Mankiw, Harvard University economics professor and former chairman of President Bush's Council of Economic Advisers, wrote: "Some supply-siders like to claim that the distortionary effect of taxes is so large that increasing tax rates reduces tax revenue. Like most economists, I don't find that conclusion credible for most tax hikes, and I doubt [then-Treasury Secretary Hank] Paulson does either." Be sure to click on the link to see another half dozen conservative voices acknowledge the demise of this failed theory.

Re: Droopy's Myths Debunked

Posted: Thu Dec 16, 2010 6:04 am
by _bcspace
Actually, the conventional wisdom is that the Bush tax cuts kept the rate of job loss less than it would have been and the Obama administration and the Democrats seem to agree because they have proposed keeping them around in some form or another.

Kevin's data only accentuates a short term spike in neagtive job growth and fails to note things like the fact that after JGTRRA, the taxes paid by the rich doubled between 2003 and 2006. Plus Kevin also doesn't understand the truism that poor people don't create jobs or wealth.

Re: Droopy's Myths Debunked

Posted: Thu Dec 16, 2010 6:31 am
by _Kevin Graham
Actually, the conventional wisdom is that the Bush tax cuts kept the rate of job loss less than it would have been and the Obama administration and the Democrats seem to agree because they have proposed keeping them around in some form or another.

This is disingenuous or either you're watching nothing but FOX News. The only reason Obama and some Democrats vote to extend the Bush tax cuts is because that is the only way the Republicans will let them extend benefits to the unemployed. Obama knows perfectly well that the Bush tax cuts have not created jobs, nor is there any reasonable basis to insist the will. All they do is inflate the deficit more.
Kevin's data only accentuates a short term spike in neagtive job growth and fails to note things like the fact that after JGTRRA, the taxes paid by the rich doubled between 2003 and 2006.


You and Droopy have a bad habit of throwing out assertions without backing them up. Hell, even this chart provided by Heritage doesn't support your claim.

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It was roughly $900 billion in 2003 and about $1.2 trillion in 2007. We see a brief spike in individual income taxes for 2007, but this hardly "doubled." In fact, it was lower than the revenue from Clinton's higher tax rates in 2000.

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Plus Kevin also doesn't understand the truism that poor people don't create jobs or wealth.


Irrelevant but still wrong. The wealthy would have nothing without the working class/poor. Name a single millionaire who didn't inherit his wealth, but "earned" it without the help of the poor. This goes along with another Right Wing myth that government cannot create wealth. Most wealthy folks feed off the poor and the government in order to accumulate wealth.

Re: Droopy's Myths Debunked

Posted: Thu Dec 16, 2010 6:37 am
by _bcspace
Above, Kevin presents a short-term downward spike in job growth that makes it look as if the Bush administration is totally at fault for all current economic woes and that Obama policies have canceled that out.

The fact of the matter is that the US experienced fantastic increases in employment after the Bush tax cuts in 2001 and 2003 almost all the way to the end of his presidency. Here are the numbers state by state from 1999 to 2009:

http://applicant.com/from-4-129-the-state-of-unemployment-across-us/

So we learn that KG buys into chart manipulation like the Washington Post does. And the left wing job growth argument has the same problem as the left-wing agw data manipulation fiasco. They simply did not include all the data in order to generate a predetermined outcome.

Hell, even this chart provided by Heritage doesn't support your claim.


Actually it does mine. Notice the constant growth after the Bush tax cuts. But the one parroted by the Washington Post didn't support yours. So what are you going to do now? Change the subject?

Re: Droopy's Myths Debunked

Posted: Thu Dec 16, 2010 7:06 am
by _Kevin Graham
Kevin presents a short-term downward spike in job growth that makes it look as if the Bush administration is totally at fault for all current economic woes and that Obama policies have canceled that out.

I presented data that goes from 1965-2010. What exactly do you think I left out? I don't need to change the subject or pollute the data with agenda driven commentary, but you obviously do since you are now backpedaling from your claim that "taxes paid by the rich doubled between 2003 and 2006". I presented the data by your own precious Heritage foundation and all you can do is call it chart manipulation? There was no "doubling" here no matter how you try to spin it. Period.
The fact of the matter is that the US experienced fantastic increases in employment after the Bush tax cuts in 2001 and 2003 almost all the way to the end of his presidency. Here are the numbers state by state from 1999 to 2009

Unlike you, I can afford to look at the entire eight year span of the Bush administration. You can't. You have to focus on a sudden spurt and then blame me for focusing on the subsequent drop off! Good grief! Sure, there was some job growth in the beginning, but that was nullified by the dramatic job loss during his second term. If you want to accredit the job creation to tax rates, then you have to do the same with the job loss. No double-standard tolerance here. Unemployment climbed at a staggering pace during his final year climbing above 8%. How the hell is this Obama's fault? Please, explain this for us.
Notice the constant growth after the Bush tax cuts. But the one parroted by the Washington Post didn't support yours. So what are you going to do now? Change the subject?

Wishful thinking. According to this chart provided by your favorite Right Wing think tank, what we see is a drop in growth with a brief spurt and then yet an even steeper drop off:
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Here is a month by month chart of job growth, or lack thereof:

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I know this is an unpleasant picture for the Right Wing propaganda machine, but the data doesn't lie. Unemployment rose for eight months straight at the end of 2008. The steep trajectory of its incline was ridiculous, and all of this took place before Obama stepped foot into the White House. It was bound to reach 10% no matter who was in office. But Obama's stimulus was credited for leveling off unemployment, and even reducing it slightly, which was nothing short of a miracle. The federal Deficit was well into the $1.3-1.4 trillion range before Obama took over too.

Re: Droopy's Myths Debunked

Posted: Thu Dec 16, 2010 7:22 am
by _Kevin Graham
The fact of the matter is that the US experienced fantastic increases in employment after the Bush tax cuts in 2001 and 2003 almost all the way to the end of his presidency. Here are the numbers state by state from 1999 to 2009:

http://applicant.com/from-4-129-the-sta ... employment was quite low?


So what you're saying is that the 8% NATIONAL unemployment rate Bush left Obama doesn't matter, because you've found a way to focus only on the "hot spots" where unemployment was quite low?

How is it you expect to be taken seriously after such an inane comment? Good God, so what? And have you even looked at that link you provided? Virtually all the states listed showed a steep drop in employment in Bush's final year. This, even with Bush creating tens of thousands of tax payer funded jobs with the expansion of government agencies like Homeland Security.

Spin all you want dude, the fact is unemployment shot up in 2008 for most of the year at increasing rates. Explain how this is Obama's fault please, and stop posturing.

Re: Droopy's Myths Debunked

Posted: Thu Dec 16, 2010 7:24 am
by _TAO
Kevin Graham wrote:I know this is an unpleasant picture for the Right Wing propaganda machine, but the data doesn't lie.


Kevin, he's saying you need A) graphs that extend all the way from the beginning of Bush's terms and B) go into more detail on a month-by-month basis for both graphs.... that's why he doesn't like it.

Re: Droopy's Myths Debunked

Posted: Thu Dec 16, 2010 7:32 am
by _Kevin Graham
Kevin, he's saying you need A) graphs that extend all the way from the beginning of Bush's terms and B) go into more detail on a month-by-month basis for both graphs.... that's why he doesn't like it.


That makes no sense. He presents no graphs at all and calls mine "manipulation" even though they are made by Heritage! And I did present a month by month graph for 2008 to show exactly how quickly the employment situation deteriorated under Bush's watch, long before Obama came to town. I'm still leaving the ball in his court to explain how Obama is to blame for the outrageous unemployment situation of 2008. This happened while the Bush Tax cuts for the Rich were still in effect.

Re: Droopy's Myths Debunked

Posted: Thu Dec 16, 2010 7:36 am
by _TAO
Kevin Graham wrote:That makes no sense. He presents no graphs at all and calls mine "manipulation" even though they are made by Heritage! And I did present a month by month graph for 2008 to show exactly how quickly the employment situation deteriorated under Bush's watch, long before Obama came to town. I'm still leaving the ball in his court to explain how Obama is to blame for the outrageous unemployment situation of 2008. This happened while the Bush Tax cuts for the Rich were still in effect.


Yes, he cannot call your graph 'manipulation', but neither can you call your graph 'accurate' until you post the information.

Re: Droopy's Myths Debunked

Posted: Thu Dec 16, 2010 7:40 am
by _Kevin Graham
How so?

If I provide a month by month graph over the course of eight years, he'll come back with a demand that I manipulated the data until I provide a week by week graph, and then a day by day graph, etc.

I don't see how a month by month graph could in any way prove the graph representing annual averages is "inaccurate" for what it claims to represent?