Are you pro life?

[Atlanticmike]

Should we be able to use guns for self defense?

Like when those squirrels cross your lawn and give you the evil eye.

Squirrels are dangerous little boogers.

[Atlanticmike]

Should we be able to use guns for self defense?

Against people with guns?

Lets say a woman is home alone and two men kick the front door in and start looting the house. She runs upstairs, locks the bedroom door and grabs her 38 revolver. The guys come into the bedroom unarmed even after she tells them she is armed and on the phone with 911. She's in fear for her life, do you think she is justified to shoot at them

[Res Ipsa]

In the department of "I kid you not." Several years ago, I met a nice couple who were boardgames. They invited me to their house and we played something. After that, we got together about one evening a month.

One evening they were talking about this squirrel who was wreaking havoc in their garden. Suddenly the husband said "there he is." Then he went into the kitchen, grabbed a handgun off the top of the fridge, and shot the squirrel. This was in a residential subdivision where the back yards butted up against undeveloped woods.

It caught me off guard, but I did my best to take it in stride, as if that's what I did with squirrels in my backyard. But the wife was clearly embarrassed. And I never heard from them again.

I ran into them in the grocery store a year or so later. We chatted, but it sounded like they weren't board gaming any more.

Maybe it was a rabbit. Stupid brain.

[Alf'Omega]

Against people with guns?

Lets say a woman is home alone and two men kick the front door in and start looting the house. She runs upstairs, locks the bedroom door and grabs her 38 revolver. The guys come into the bedroom unarmed even after she tells them she is armed and on the phone with 911. She's in fear for her life, do you think she is justified to shoot at them

Gun owners love to imagine these dirty harry type scenarios that aren't likely to ever happen anywhere outside of Hollywood.

The fact is gun owners are just as likely to have their own guns used against them during home invasions. Why? Because most people invading homes plan out their crime and it hardly ever involves "kicking open a door."

Getting rid of all guns isn't a viable option because there are simply too many of them. If this were two centuries ago we could have nipped this in the butt by banning guns and hundreds of thousands of Americans wouldn't have been killed over that span of time. At this point, the best route to go is to legislate gun control measures that make it more difficult for likely criminals to get their hands on them. But yes, I agree. guns are stupid. But we're a stupid country filled with emasculated weenies who think their AR15 is an extension of their penis.

[Alf'Omega]

In the department of "I kid you not." Several years ago, I met a nice couple who were boardgames. They invited me to their house and we played something. After that, we got together about one evening a month.

One evening they were talking about this squirrel who was wreaking havoc in their garden. Suddenly the husband said "there he is." Then he went into the kitchen, grabbed a handgun off the top of the fridge, and shot the squirrel. This was in a residential subdivision where the back yards butted up against undeveloped woods.

It caught me off guard, but I did my best to take it in stride, as if that's what I did with squirrels in my backyard. But the wife was clearly embarrassed. And I never heard from them again.

I ran into them in the grocery store a year or so later. We chatted, but it sounded like they weren't board gaming any more.

Maybe it was a rabbit. Stupid brain.

I never understood why libertarians are such huge gun advocates when people are literally being killed in their own homes from stray bullets after being fired by neighbors. I thought their whole schtick is that people should be free to do what they want until it endangers the lives of others. And this doesn't even touch on the subject of accidentally killing people in their own families. Killings that never would have happened if they actually took up a different hobby and didn't litter their house with guns in every room like some folks do.

[Sledge]

Should we be able to use guns for self defense?

Nope. If there are no guns, there is no need to use guns. Bad guys don't have 'em, and good guys don't have 'em.

[ceeboo]

Hey Res,

One evening they were talking about this squirrel who was wreaking havoc in their garden. Suddenly the husband said "there he is." Then he went into the kitchen, grabbed a handgun off the top of the fridge, and shot the squirrel. This was in a residential subdivision where the back yards butted up against undeveloped woods.

Oh dear! That's nuts!

It caught me off guard, but I did my best to take it in stride, as if that's what I did with squirrels in my backyard.

Would have loved to have been a fly on the wall for that.

[Alf'Omega]

Should we be able to use guns for self defense?

Nope. If there are no guns, there is no need to use guns. Bad guys don't have 'em, and good guys don't have 'em.

Most people who want to rob you don't want to kill you. If they're robbing you of your TV or Computer or wallet, you're willingness to end that person's life over the loss of such things says what about you?

I know a few people who have actually killed, whether it be police officers on duty or veterans returning from war. Taking someone's life is something that sticks with you forever. I never understood how some gun owners talk about killing burglars and such like its no big thing. What are they, psychopaths? That guy you shot in the back as he was leaving your home with a flat screen TV, maybe you find out later than he was a addict who needed help, and you just orphaned his kids.

[Res Ipsa]

In the department of "I kid you not." Several years ago, I met a nice couple who were boardgames. They invited me to their house and we played something. After that, we got together about one evening a month.

One evening they were talking about this squirrel who was wreaking havoc in their garden. Suddenly the husband said "there he is." Then he went into the kitchen, grabbed a handgun off the top of the fridge, and shot the squirrel. This was in a residential subdivision where the back yards butted up against undeveloped woods.

It caught me off guard, but I did my best to take it in stride, as if that's what I did with squirrels in my backyard. But the wife was clearly embarrassed. And I never heard from them again.

I ran into them in the grocery store a year or so later. We chatted, but it sounded like they weren't board gaming any more.

Maybe it was a rabbit. Stupid brain.

I never understood why libertarians are such huge gun advocates when people are literally being killed in their own homes from stray bullets after being fired by neighbors. I thought their whole schtick is that people should be free to do what they want until it endangers the lives of others. And this doesn't even touch on the subject of accidentally killing people in their own families. Killings that never would have happened if they actually took up a different hobby and didn't litter their house with guns in every room like some folks do.

I understand it, although "libertarian" encompasses a wide range of views on all kinds of issues. For most libertarians I've talked with, the issue is individual liberty vis a vis the state. In particular, many of them view the second amendment as an important limitation on government tyranny. If they don't have guns, they are at the complete mercy of the state. And those views resonate with some of the views expressed by the founders. So, it's not surprising to me that to many libertarians, the necessity of having the physical ability to fight the state is so fundamental to freedom that the expected accidental harm is unfortunate, but acceptable friendly fire. In my experience, issues like self defense or hunting aren't nearly as important as having the means to resist a tyrannical state.

If I had to try and construct a similar argument on an issue you might be more inclined to agree with, I'd pick the 4th amendment. Undoubtedly, some people who are guilty of crimes go free because law enforcement violated the 4th amendment. And, given the law of large numbers, some percentage of those people will go on to commit other crimes, including murder, because they were able to escape imprisonment on the earlier charge. Maybe you'd agree, though, that the importance of the people being free from unreasonable search and seizure is worth the unfortunate loss of life that we should expect to result.

So, even though I don't agree with the position I described on firearms, I find it easy to understand and based in statements by some of the founders. I've also got some atypical views of individual rights that are a little kooky.

[canpakes]

Against people with guns?

Lets say a woman is home alone and two men kick the front door in and start looting the house. She runs upstairs, locks the bedroom door and grabs her 38 revolver. The guys come into the bedroom unarmed even after she tells them she is armed and on the phone with 911. She's in fear for her life, do you think she is justified to shoot at them

Given the stupidity and behavior of the two fellows in your scenario, Woman in Bedroom has every right to frag their arse. That’s the law in many places. But let’s hope that she knows how to handle a firearm.

However, your scenario is exceptionally tight. Do you believe that all ‘stand your ground’ laws are valid and/or without some potential for wrongful death?

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