More on the Union Gravy Train - From Engine to Caboose

[_Droopy]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WmFyocRpogc

[_Jason Bourne]

Droopy, a question for you. Aren't Unions part of the free market? Aren't the laborers way of uniting and using the strength of their numbers to get a better deal for their time a free market function? If they want more pay, better benefits they can negotiate and even refuse to work. They may lose their jobs as well. But it seems to me the Unions are the free market at work in its ultimate form. The labor is bargaining for his/her wage and the employer can choose to pay or not pay. The company may be without workers though as well. Why would a free market person like you be so anti-Union?

[_cinepro]

Droopy, a question for you. Aren't Unions part of the free market? Aren't the laborers way of uniting and using the strength of their numbers to get a better deal for their time a free market function? If they want more pay, better benefits they can negotiate and even refuse to work. They may lose their jobs as well. But it seems to me the Unions are the free market at work in its ultimate form. The labor is bargaining for his/her wage and the employer can choose to pay or not pay. The company may be without workers though as well. Why would a free market person like you be so anti-Union?

I'm not Droopy, but I'm pretty pro-free-market, so I'll chip in my $.02.

Unions have a place in a "free market" only to the degree that they operate according to the rules of the free market. But much of what unions do is to try and get the "free market" to be less free, only in their favor. They try to limit the supply of workers, as well as limiting an employer's ability to replace them with non-union workers. In a real "free market", a company wouldn't be prevented from hiring non-union workers.

It's the same thing business owners do. They don't want a "free market", they want a market that is tilted in their favor (one interesting example of this is how modern businesses can use the permit and licensing process to reduce competition in their industry). So we have developed rules and laws to try and prevent them from creating monopolies and cartels, recognizing that competition results in the best outcome for society in general.

So there is nothing wrong with workers organizing together to negotiate for better terms, but only to the degree that they do so in a free market environment.

And just for the record, one place I think unions have done a good job is the entertainment industry here in Los Angeles. Unions have had a very important place due to the transitory nature of most jobs in the industry, and the need for a high degree of skilled workers.

[_Gadianton]

Have to separate between agents behaving rationally and agents operating within a free market. Just because agents behave rationally, doesn't mean that they are exercising "free market" behavior, as there isn't really such a thing, and it doesn't mean they are operating in a free market. This is a major point of confusion for Droopy and BC, it's almost as difficult as distinguishing between a loan and an investment for them. It's an assumption of free-market economics that agents behave rationally. There is no discussion here. You can throw around policies, entertain collusion, institute slavery, and we'll just assume people are rational in any and every circumstance. Droopy and BC believe people must understand economics, hold Christian values, and believe in right-wing propoganda before they are rational, and thus, before a market can work. This is leftist teaching, because it's the left that generally believes, like droopy and bc, that people aren't rational, and need guidance from government leaders or religious leaders, philosophy kings, or politicians. Unions arise from rational behavior as do private firms and police states. This is a market failure, not a success. An example of where markets can produce sub-optimal outcomes.

Unions often represent the same problem as other forms of collusion and barriers to entry for a free market, but agents are certainly rational for participating in them. Every new doctor must entertain the thought at some point, once he's in the clear to practice, that professional requirements are slacking and degrees are given out too easy for the next generation. everyone has an interest in keeping their own income propped up, and thus, in barriers to entry within their industry and opportunities to collude. All of these activities create sub-optimal outcomes for the market as a whole.

I don't in theory like unions, but niether do i like exploitation and a whole list of other things, so I don't get disproportionately worked up over it.

[_Brackite]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kxc6kzH-uI

[_cinepro]

for what it's worth, another "cartel" that I am opposed to is the American legal system, where lawyers act to restrict competition in the legal services community.

Today, the law profession is closed off to all but those who can afford the largely useless steps of obtaining a license, all thanks to the lobbying of bar associations. You cannot "practice law"--an extremely vague concept--unless you possess a license from the state. You cannot obtain a license without going through a very costly gauntlet of law school and the bar exam. In every state but Arizona, an "unauthorized practice of law" (UPL) prohibition (usually a statute, but in some states a judicial rule) protects the legal cartel from competition.

By artificially raising the cost of entry into the market, there are fewer competitors. Those remaining in the market can charge more. The American Bar Association has commissioned studies that conclude that a large number of Americans are priced out of the market for legal services. But instead of advocating a free market, it lobbies for more money for subsidized legal help for the poor. In 1987, the Chairman of the Legal Services Corporation, W. Clark Durant, actually gave a speech to the ABA in which he called for the abolition of his agency and all barriers to competition in the market. The next day, the president of the ABA called for Durant's resignation.

http://mises.org/freemarket_detail.aspx?control=51

There are many services that could be provided by non-lawyers just as well (or better) and more cheaply, but lawyers have acted to ensure only bar-approved practitioners can perform those tasks.

[_ajax18]

Lawyers get more fired up about unauthorized practice of law than the carpenters union gets upset about illegal immigrant construction labor.