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Supreme Court (2008, 2010): Gun control already dead in the water

Posted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 5:27 am
by _bcspace
That would be District of Columbia v. Heller (2008) and the associated McDonald v. Chicago.

by the way, in the latter, the Left tried to argue the opposite of what they usually do when they trot out the 14th Amendment vis a vis Due Process as it relates to the Bill of Rights.

Meaning of "well regulated militia":

"[t]he adjective 'well-regulated' implies nothing more than the imposition of proper discipline and training."

Heller, Opinion of the Court, Part II-A-2


Meaning of "the right of the People"

Nowhere else in the Constitution does a “right” attributed to “the people” refer to anything other than an individual right. What is more, in all six other provisions of the Constitution that mention “the people,” the term unambiguously refers to all members of the political community, not an unspecified subset. This contrasts markedly with the phrase “the militia” in the prefatory clause. As we will describe below, the “militia” in colonial America consisted of a subset of “the people”— those who were male, able bodied, and within a certain age range. Reading the Second Amendment as protecting only the right to “keep and bear Arms” in an organized militia therefore fits poorly with the operative clause’s description of the holder of that right as “the people”.

"District of Columbia v Heller". Supreme.justia.com. Retrieved 2010-08-30


Meaning of "keep and bear arms"

Before addressing the verbs “keep” and “bear,” we interpret their object: “Arms.” The term was applied, then as now, to weapons that were not specifically designed for military use and were not employed in a military capacity. Thus, the most natural reading of “keep Arms” in the Second Amendment is to “have weapons.” At the time of the founding, as now, to “bear” meant to “carry.” In numerous instances, “bear arms” was unambiguously used to refer to the carrying of weapons outside of an organized militia. Nine state constitutional provisions written in the 18th century or the first two decades of the 19th, which enshrined a right of citizens “bear arms in defense of themselves and the state” again, in the most analogous linguistic context—that “bear arms” was not limited to the carrying of arms in a militia. The phrase “bear Arms” also had at the time of the founding an idiomatic meaning that was significantly different from its natural meaning: “to serve as a soldier, do military service, fight” or “to wage war.” But it unequivocally bore that idiomatic meaning only when followed by the preposition “against,”. Every example given by petitioners’ amici for the idiomatic meaning of “bear arms” from the founding period either includes the preposition “against” or is not clearly idiomatic. In any event, the meaning of “bear arms” that petitioners and Justice Stevens propose is not even the (sometimes) idiomatic meaning. Rather, they manufacture a hybrid definition, whereby “bear arms” connotes the actual carrying of arms (and therefore is not really an idiom) but only in the service of an organized militia. No dictionary has ever adopted that definition, and we have been apprised of no source that indicates that it carried that meaning at the time of the founding. Worse still, the phrase “keep and bear Arms” would be incoherent. The word “Arms” would have two different meanings at once: “weapons” (as the object of “keep”) and (as the object of “bear”) one-half of an idiom. It would be rather like saying “He filled and kicked the bucket” to mean “He filled the bucket and died.”

"District of Columbia v Heller". Supreme.justia.com. Retrieved 2010-08-30


In other words, the early American notions of the right to keep and bear arms...

deterring tyrannical government;
repelling invasion;
suppressing insurrection;
facilitating a natural right of self-defense;
participating in law enforcement;
enabling the people to organize a militia system

...has been upheld.

Yet another reason history will be kind to Bush whether the Democrats are able to overthrow the Constitution or not.

Re: Supreme Court (2008, 2010): Gun control already dead in the wat

Posted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 9:43 am
by _EAllusion
bcspace wrote:
In other words, the early American notions of the right to keep and bear arms...

deterring tyrannical government;
repelling invasion;
suppressing insurrection;
facilitating a natural right of self-defense;
participating in law enforcement;
enabling the people to organize a militia system

...has been upheld.


That's essentially the idea behind the second amendment. It derives from a time where makeshift standing armies were cobbled together from people grabbing their personal weapons and getting together to fight. But that era of minutemen that informed Madison et. al. is completely archaic to modern times. People aren't going to get their personal use guns and form a militia that can repel invasion or deter a tyrannical government. State militias (i.e. the national guard) have been nationalized and are part of the federal government's military apparatus. The kind of techniques that could allow US citizens to fight an asymmetrical warfare against its own government or (the completely implausible) hostile takeover, such as IED training, are heavily suppressed by our legal system and fall under counterterrorism efforts that conservatives tend to strongly favor. After all, the people who prepare to fight our government are viewed as potential enemies of the state. Heck, if you were to survey self-described conservatives, how many do you think would favor making it a crime to merely advocate violent revolution against the state? What if Muslims are doing it? So, my question to you is, which is it? The spirit of the second amendment or counterterrorism? I know you are animated by "get the liberals!" rather than any coherent ideological viewpoint, but there is a tension in your impulses here between the more libertarian approach and the statist conservative approach to this issue.

Yet another reason history will be kind to Bush whether the Democrats are able to overthrow the Constitution or not.


How many years do you think before W isn't regarded as one of the worst presidents in US history?

Re: Supreme Court (2008, 2010): Gun control already dead in the wat

Posted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 10:26 am
by _EAllusion
EAllusion wrote: Heck, if you were to survey self-described conservatives, how many do you think would favor making it a crime to merely advocate violent revolution against the state? What if Muslims are doing it?


Incidentally, while the Supreme Court has traditionally upheld this as constitutionally protected under the first amendment, the Obama admin has gone ahead and arrested and prosecuted people for pure political opposition to the US that merely shows sympathy with terrorist groups that advocate the use of force against our government. The established line has been direct incitement to imminent lawless action. So while the courts have been clear that "the constitutional guarantees of free speech and free press do not permit a State to forbid or proscribe advocacy of the use of force," the Obama admin has zipped right past that into arguing merely seeming like you might support a group that supports the use of force against the US should be considered a crime for implicitly providing support to terrorism. The admin is currently fighting established precedent in the court system to defend this. There is approximately zero opposition from mainline conservative groups on this action, despite it contravening the very spirit of the bill of rights you articulate in the specific case of the second amendment here. What's going on? Do you favor the arrest and prosecution of someone who, for example, condemns abu garib in a youtube video and posts logos of terrorist organizations afterwards? Or does your idea of what the bill of rights extends to only include elderly tea partiers fantasizing about being part of a group of minutemen in tricorner hats fighting liberals and Mexicans crossing the border with their hobbyist guns?

One of the side effects of being founded by violent revolutionaries is that their founding documents take a favorable view of letting people talk about and prepare for violent revolution. The second amendment is part of that, which you are correct to point out, but I wonder if you grasp the implications.

Re: Supreme Court (2008, 2010): Gun control already dead in the wat

Posted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 1:49 pm
by _subgenius
EAllusion wrote:How many years do you think before W isn't regarded as one of the worst presidents in US history?

Jimmy Carter has nothing to worry about...that title is still safely his....for now.
Though arguably James Buchanan is actually the worst.
Not to diminish Obama's obvious efforts to claim the title for himself.

Re: Supreme Court (2008, 2010): Gun control already dead in the wat

Posted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 2:02 pm
by _subgenius
EAllusion wrote:..Mexicans crossing the border with their hobbyist guns?

FAIL

Google "fast and furious" and "project gunwalker"

awkward for you

Image

Re: Supreme Court (2008, 2010): Gun control already dead in the wat

Posted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 2:19 pm
by _Jaybear
subgenius wrote:
EAllusion wrote:..Mexicans crossing the border with their hobbyist guns?

FAIL

Google "fast and furious" and "project gunwalker"

awkward for you

Image


Never understood the right's issue here.

You oppose ban on assault weapons sales here, but want the feds to take aggressive action against US citizens seeking to purchase said weapons to insure that the weapons don't find there way into Mexico where the guns are illegal. IN other words, you support the ban on assault weapons in Mexico. Guns don't kill people, but feds who don't help Mexico enforce its gun laws kill people?

This seems to be just another manifestation of your irrational hatred for Obama.

Re: Supreme Court (2008, 2010): Gun control already dead in the wat

Posted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 2:20 pm
by _EAllusion
subgenius wrote:
EAllusion wrote:How many years do you think before W isn't regarded as one of the worst presidents in US history?

Jimmy Carter has nothing to worry about...that title is still safely his....for now.


It's usually considered to be Buchanan, Andrew Johnson, Hoover, Grant, and Harding. Carter floats somewhere in the middle. When George W. Bush gets included on lists, he's usually around the bottom (high 30's) as well. He is the most unpopular president in the history that the figure has been measured. How those decisions get made for contemporary figures vs. historical ones is quite different, though. I consider Andrew Jackson and Woodrow Wilson to be two are our most terrible presidents and both tend to get near great status. This is not because historians love genocide against Native Americans or setting back black civil rights decades, but because both were very powerful, impactful figures on the course of US history. Being influential and influential for good are distinct things.

Re: Supreme Court (2008, 2010): Gun control already dead in the wat

Posted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 4:41 pm
by _beastie
EAllusion wrote:Incidentally, while the Supreme Court has traditionally upheld this as constitutionally protected under the first amendment, the Obama admin has gone ahead and arrested and prosecuted people for pure political opposition to the US that merely shows sympathy with terrorist groups that advocate the use of force against our government. The established line has been direct incitement to imminent lawless action. So while the courts have been clear that "the constitutional guarantees of free speech and free press do not permit a State to forbid or proscribe advocacy of the use of force," the Obama admin has zipped right past that into arguing merely seeming like you might support a group that supports the use of force against the US should be considered a crime for implicitly providing support to terrorism. The admin is currently fighting established precedent in the court system to defend this. There is approximately zero opposition from mainline conservative groups on this action, despite it contravening the very spirit of the bill of rights you articulate in the specific case of the second amendment here. What's going on? Do you favor the arrest and prosecution of someone who, for example, condemns abu garib in a youtube video and posts logos of terrorist organizations afterwards? Or does your idea of what the bill of rights extends to only include elderly tea partiers fantasizing about being part of a group of minutemen in tricorner hats fighting liberals and Mexicans crossing the border with their hobbyist guns?

One of the side effects of being founded by violent revolutionaries is that their founding documents take a favorable view of letting people talk about and prepare for violent revolution. The second amendment is part of that, which you are correct to point out, but I wonder if you grasp the implications.


I doubt bcspace will respond to this.

Re: Supreme Court (2008, 2010): Gun control already dead in the wat

Posted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 5:40 pm
by _ajax18
One of the side effects of being founded by violent revolutionaries is that their founding documents take a favorable view of letting people talk about and prepare for violent revolution. The second amendment is part of that, which you are correct to point out, but I wonder if you grasp the implications.


Live free or die. Those are the implications as far as I'm concerned.

Re: Supreme Court (2008, 2010): Gun control already dead in the wat

Posted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 7:21 pm
by _subgenius
Jaybear wrote:Never understood the right's issue here.

You oppose ban on assault weapons sales here, but want the feds to take aggressive action against US citizens seeking to purchase said weapons to insure that the weapons don't find there way into Mexico where the guns are illegal. IN other words, you support the ban on assault weapons in Mexico. Guns don't kill people, but feds who don't help Mexico enforce its gun laws kill people?

This seems to be just another manifestation of your irrational hatred for Obama.


You guys always like to pull the "in other words" because the actual words are too difficult for you to admit into your bubble.

I never claimed any position on gun control.

I can claim a position against the United States Federal Government providing assault weapons to Mexican criminals.
I can claim a position against the Obama administration's execution of that project and the subsequent failure in integrity when dealing with its results.