Help the Housing Market By Giving More Bad Loans?

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_cinepro
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Help the Housing Market By Giving More Bad Loans?

Post by _cinepro »

Sometimes it's enough to make a person cry: :cry:

President Obama’s economic advisers and outside experts say the nation’s much-celebrated housing rebound is leaving too many people behind, including young people looking to buy their first homes and individuals with credit records weakened by the recession.

In response, administration officials say they are working to get banks to lend to a wider range of borrowers by taking advantage of taxpayer-backed programs — including those offered by the Federal Housing Administration — that insure home loans against default.


http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/ ... story.html


Steps to housing recovery:

1. Let interest rates rise to where they should be.

2. Require lenders, not tax payers, to assume the risk of the loan (and therefore set the terms).

After the shouting stops and some pain from the adjustment, we'd have a rock-solid housing industry.
_ajax18
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Re: Help the Housing Market By Giving More Bad Loans?

Post by _ajax18 »

This is outrageous. I know there are a section of dedicated Marxist like Analytics who don't see a problem with this, but I think most Americans would not stand for this twice. They just feel powerless and disenfranchised by politics and refuse to think about it as a coping mechanism.
And when the confederates saw Jackson standing fearless as a stone wall the army of Northern Virginia took courage and drove the federal army off their land.
_Kevin Graham
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Re: Help the Housing Market By Giving More Bad Loans?

Post by _Kevin Graham »

cinepro. where does it say anything about "giving bad loans"?
_Kevin Graham
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Re: Help the Housing Market By Giving More Bad Loans?

Post by _Kevin Graham »

Steps to housing recovery:

1. Let interest rates rise to where they should be.


How would this encourage more people to buy homes as opposed to renting?


2. Require lenders, not tax payers, to assume the risk of the loan (and therefore set the terms).


You mean by implementing more regulations, such as the Glass-Steagall Act?

What are you, a socialist or something?
_cinepro
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Re: Help the Housing Market By Giving More Bad Loans?

Post by _cinepro »

Kevin Graham wrote:How would this encourage more people to buy homes as opposed to renting?


With the current system, renting can be a perfectly good (and sometimes preferable) option. If we look at "home ownership" as the end-all-be-all of the American existence, and then classify someone who puts no money down on a home as a "home owner" (instead of a "home debtor"), then things have gone backwards.

At the very least, if the government is going to back a loan, they should require a 20% down payment. If someone doesn't have it, then they should rent, which means someone else has bought the house as an investment and they are shouldering the risk, not the taxpayers (assuming the investor didn't use a government backed loan too).

http://lifehacker.com/5900232/follow-th ... -on-a-home

I support the idea of requiring converts to Mormonism to attend Church for at least three weeks (or more) before letting them get baptized for the same reason.


You mean by implementing more regulations, such as the Glass-Steagall Act?

What are you, a socialist or something?


No, right now we have a 90% socialized mortgage system.

http://www.propublica.org/article/weve- ... t-now-what

The government should treat housing like any other asset people might buy or invest in (gold, stocks, beanie babies, cars etc.) If people want to buy them, let them. If they don't have enough money, let them borrow it from someone who has it. If they can't pay back the person they borrowed from, then the lender loses money.

The irony is that much of the reason we can't do this is because of the power of the Real Estate and Construction lobbies (not to mention the lobbying from the government entities that administer these programs). So hooray for lobbyists... :rolleyes:
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Re: Help the Housing Market By Giving More Bad Loans?

Post by _Kevin Graham »

With the current system, renting can be a perfectly good (and sometimes preferable) option. If we look at "home ownership" as the end-all-be-all of the American existence, and then classify someone who puts no money down on a home as a "home owner" (instead of a "home debtor"), then things have gone backwards.

At the very least, if the government is going to back a loan, they should require a 20% down payment. If someone doesn't have it, then they should rent, which means someone else has bought the house as an investment and they are shouldering the risk, not the taxpayers (assuming the investor didn't use a government backed loan too).


None of this answers the question. You said increasing interest rates "where they should be" is the first step to a housing recovery. Well, can you explain how this would do that? Historically, housing markets boom during times of low interest rates. By increasing rates, people tend to wait for them to drop again before committing themselves to 15-30 year loans. As to your second point:

2. Require lenders, not tax payers, to assume the risk of the loan (and therefore set the terms).


But this is already the case and always has been. If you read the piece you linked us to, you'd read:
Administration officials say they are looking only to allay unnecessary hesitation among banks and encourage safe lending to borrowers who have the financial wherewithal to pay.

“There’s always a tension that you have to take seriously between providing clarity and rules of the road and not giving any opportunity to restart the kind of irresponsible lending that we saw in the mid-2000s,” said a senior administration official who was not authorized to speak on the record.


So where is this "giving bad loans" rhetoric coming from?

I get the sense that you're giving too much credence to the Right Wing myth that the housing crisis occurred because the government was "forcing banks" to give bad loans. That never happened. The bubble and its bursting happened because of the repeal of Glass-Steagall, which meant more unbridled capitalism and fewer regulations. It wasn't a case of too much government involvement, but a lack thereof. The GSE like Fannie and Freddie simply purchased the mortgages (which is how you spin the issue as "90% nationalization," which is absurd), but they were purchased from private lenders who were responsible for setting the terms of the initial loans.

The fact is most people who pay rent will generally pay less on a mortgage if they don't get duped into signing an adjustable rate mortgage (ARM), so it is not reasonable to assume they "can't pay" just because their credit scores are low or because they have low incomes. What happened during the housing crisis was private lenders took advantage of too many borrowers, scamming them into signing contracts they didn't understand, urging them to do ARM loans that promised low rates in the beginning, but would eventually double and triple their mortgage payments through time. So millions of Americans got screwed, and had to default. But it wasn't because most of them were never able to make the payments agreed upon during the initial contract.

It was because there was virtually no accountability in the private lending market, so entrepreneurs started their own businesses proving loans. They started churning out newer loans by the millions, raking in those commissions and then defrauding the entity that purchased those loans. It was the new cultural mentality of "there is never enough mortgages to sign" that led to the bubble and it was their reckless/illegal behavior as lenders that led to millions of mortgage defaults. Because they didn't care. Why? Well thanks to the repeal of Glass-Steagall, they were getting paid upfront, and after selling off the mortgages to other banks (or Fannie), it was no longer the lender's problem.

They also dumped millions into advertising themselves, getting more and more Americans to buy mortgages (enough is never enough when we're talking about greed), assuring them that they'd be paying less than they already do for rent. Just look at this commercial, and then ask yourself, is this commercial by a government or private company. It was that beautiful capitalistic "profit motive" that urged lenders to screw the borrowers, caring for nothing but profit, while pushing them to sign "subprime" or ARM loans because they paid higher commissions. Had there been some Federal oversight, this never would have happened.
_cinepro
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Re: Help the Housing Market By Giving More Bad Loans?

Post by _cinepro »

Why? Well thanks to the repeal of Glass-Steagall, they were getting paid upfront, and after selling off the mortgages to other banks (or Fannie), it was no longer the lender's problem.


I agree. It needs to be the lender's problem. For 90% of mortgages made today, whose "problem" is it?
_EAllusion
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Re: Help the Housing Market By Giving More Bad Loans?

Post by _EAllusion »

Kevin Graham wrote:How would this encourage more people to buy homes as opposed to renting?


It wouldn't. But that's a good thing. Artificially deflating housing prices and skewing the value of renting vs. owning has negative economic consequences. And on top of it, there's nothing inherently superior to owning a property vs. not. The various ways in which the government has subsidized home ownership to drive down the relative benefits of renting isn't inherently a good thing. Government pressure on banks to back subprime loans was a very small piece of the economic collapse of 2008, but artificially low interest rates on mortgages was not. We absolutely should be wary of reinflating the bubble.
_EAllusion
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Re: Help the Housing Market By Giving More Bad Loans?

Post by _EAllusion »

Kevin Graham wrote:None of this answers the question. You said increasing interest rates "where they should be" is the first step to a housing recovery. Well, can you explain how this would do that?


Interest rates are kept way below where they naturally would be because of Fed rate policy designed to loosen circulation of funds. This artificial pressure is a big piece of why there was a housing bubble in the first place. People were able to borrow money at a cost far below what the risk of their inability to pay the loan back normally would entail. This contributed to a huge volume of risky debt that, once the dominoes started falling, imploded. You seem to be advocating creating another housing bubble. Yeah, what could go wrong with that?

Historically, housing markets boom during times of low interest rates. By increasing rates, people tend to wait for them to drop again before committing themselves to 15-30 year loans.


Making people not commit to loans unless they are in a financial position to have a high probability to pay them back? Crazy talk. The housing market hit a floor. Letting it recover gradually in accordance with the purchasing power of consumers is the responsible thing to do. What's not responsible is artificially driving down the cost of money so more people who are on the bubble with their ability to afford a house enter the market.
_Kevin Graham
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Re: Help the Housing Market By Giving More Bad Loans?

Post by _Kevin Graham »

I agree. It needs to be the lender's problem. For 90% of mortgages made today, whose "problem" is it?


It isn't a "problem" at all right now. Why do you think it would be? It was only a problem during the 2000's when predatory lenders were swindling naïve folks who were intoxicated on the thoughts of living the "American dream" by owing their home.

We bought our home almost two years ago. The process was remarkably simple and the forms were very clear and the things that needed to be underscored were highlighted accordingly. When I joked with our private lender about how the process wasn't nearly as confusing and excruciating as many had led me to believe it would be, he explained that this was because of recent Federal regulations implemented under Obama that made it much more difficult for lenders to trick the borrowers. For example, there were several forms that had the sentence "THIS IS A FIXED RATE MORTGAGE" written in bold just like that. It also explained what that meant in bold: "YOUR MONTHLY PAYMENT WILL NEVER INCREASE." I presume if we had signed an ARM loan, similar paperwork would keep underscoring the fact that our monthly payments would increase through time.

It was required in the paperwork with my signature otherwise the whole deal was rendered void. During the 2000's it was stuff like this that got lost in translation in a mountain of paperwork, which led to many good hard working families getting screwed and forced into default. Those same families should be paying a mortgage they can afford now, but thanks to the white collar crime wave of the 2000's, where predatory lenders ripped off hard working Americans, millions of them suffered a "bad credit" crisis, and are still paying for it.

It wouldn't.


Precisely the point. So in what sense would it be a "housing recovery"?

But that's a good thing.


For the Real estate speculators and existing home owners? Probably. By why is that a good thing for everyone else?

Artificially deflating housing prices and skewing the value of renting vs. owning has negative economic consequences.


For people who have invested in apartment complexes maybe. If more people are buying homes, then there is a larger supply of vacant apartments. Which means lower rent for everyone. How is this bad?

And on top of it, there's nothing inherently superior to owning a property vs. not.


Well that depends. If you're elderly and don't care about leaving an inheritance to anyone, then I could see the advantages of renting an apartment where you won't have to deal with things like HOA covenants or maintaining the lawn. But I think the vast majority of people would prefer to actually own their place of residence.

The various ways in which the government has subsidized home ownership to drive down the relative benefits of renting isn't inherently a good thing.


Helping more people become home owners as opposed to renters, isn't a good thing? Helping more Americans acquire wealth and build their own financial portfolio with equity, as opposed to being debtors for life... isn't a good thing?

Government pressure on banks to back subprime loans was a very small piece of the economic collapse of 2008, but artificially low interest rates on mortgages was not. We absolutely should be wary of reinflating the bubble.


But at this point we're nowhere near a bubble. What we're talking about is a "housing recovery," which would naturally entail an increase in mortgages. To sit back and say let it continue to stagnate for fear of a bubble, is just silly. And to assume anyone who wants more people to own their homes is supportive of another "bubble" is also silly.

And you say let the market recover naturally as if that's always a good thing. And just what exactly do you think its "natural" pace of improvement would be? And why do you think it would improve "naturally" in the first place?
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