Do We Really Have It Right?

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Xenophon
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Re: Do We Really Have It Right?

Post by Xenophon »

Ceebs, there is a lot to chew on there and I'll try to revisit it all as time allows but something did stick out to me that I want to address.
ceeboo wrote:
Thu Sep 16, 2021 9:57 am
A third option simply doesn't exist.
Might I propose what I see as not only a third option but what is, in my opinion, THE option for most of us:

You aren't a sexist but you occasionally, I'm sure generally unintentionally, say or do things that are sexist.

Now lest you think I'm pointing fingers, we can all be guilty of this (this applies to all bigotry for that matter, but let's stick to one thing at a time). Because of all that context and nuance we've been discussing for 10 pages you will inevitably say or do something that reads as sexist to posters here.

In my observation when we begin to shift from the land of "making sexist comments occasionally" to "sexist" in the eyes of others is mostly in how we respond to the criticism. Do we apologize, attempt to clarify, adjust our actions? Or do we dig in deeper and fail to adjust?

I'll provide a personal example that I hope clarifies my position and might help highlight that I'm not attempting to attack or accuse you here but rather foster a meaningful discussion on the topic.

Growing up it was very common to use phrases like "great work guys" or refer to a group of friends, regardless of gender mix, as "dudes". As I've gotten older I've both realized and had it highlighted to me that language like that can be seen as exclusionary. That it can make people that don't feel like they fall into the categorization of "guys" like they don't belong or the contributions weren't valued. My reaction has been an attempt to change the language I use (although I still fall short). Had I learned how my language effected others and decided to keep trucking along in my old ways I think it would have been fair for those who feel excluded to move me from the "human who occasionally does a sexist thing" to "sexist" especially if there was any other negative behavior that I might not be consciously aware of.

Another personal example that I struggle with even today. My brain has a hard time viewing posters in gender neutral terms. I caught myself as recently as yesterday defaulting to the position that a poster was male when I didn't actually know. This one is a subtle one but I have no doubt that at times I've probably come across as misogynistic because of this default my brain slides into (if I've done it to any of the posters here, sincerely I apologize and please know I'm trying to be better).

And all that previous gibberish to say, black and white thinking is the enemy. We are all capable of great and terrible things, often without always intending them, but almost never just one or the other. Now does this mean that everyone else couldn't just cut everyone slack and not call out behavior that feels/is exclusionary to them... sure. But as I've said a few times in this thread alone, at the end of the day I can control only my own actions and my reactions to other. I have to make sure I'm listening to the feedback and taking a hard look at my actions if I'm to have any hope of being a decent human.

apologies for any terrible proofing here, I find it nearly impossible to post from my phone but I couldn't let these thoughts sit
He/Him

“If you consider what are called the virtues in mankind, you will find their growth is assisted by education and cultivation.”
― Xenophon
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Re: Do We Really Have It Right?

Post by Cultellus »

Gorilla
Last edited by Cultellus on Sun Sep 19, 2021 1:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Do We Really Have It Right?

Post by ceeboo »

Good morning X-Factor!
Xenophon wrote:
Thu Sep 16, 2021 1:33 pm
Ceebs, there is a lot to chew on there and I'll try to revisit it all as time allows but something did stick out to me that I want to address.
I look forward to hearing your future thoughts (If and when they arrive on this beautiful thread)
ceeboo wrote:
Thu Sep 16, 2021 9:57 am
A third option simply doesn't exist.
Might I propose what I see as not only a third option but what is, in my opinion, THE option for most of us:
Of course!
You aren't a sexist but you occasionally, I'm sure generally unintentionally, say or do things that are sexist.
Could you give me an example - I promise that I won't take any offense. You can use the accusation made in this thread if you would like.
Now lest you think I'm pointing fingers, we can all be guilty of this (this applies to all bigotry for that matter, but let's stick to one thing at a time). Because of all that context and nuance we've been discussing for 10 pages you will inevitably say or do something that reads as sexist to posters here.

In my observation when we begin to shift from the land of "making sexist comments occasionally" to "sexist" in the eyes of others is mostly in how we respond to the criticism. Do we apologize, attempt to clarify, adjust our actions? Or do we dig in deeper and fail to adjust?

I'll provide a personal example that I hope clarifies my position and might help highlight that I'm not attempting to attack or accuse you here but rather foster a meaningful discussion on the topic.

Growing up it was very common to use phrases like "great work guys" or refer to a group of friends, regardless of gender mix, as "dudes". As I've gotten older I've both realized and had it highlighted to me that language like that can be seen as exclusionary. That it can make people that don't feel like they fall into the categorization of "guys" like they don't belong or the contributions weren't valued. My reaction has been an attempt to change the language I use (although I still fall short). Had I learned how my language effected others and decided to keep trucking along in my old ways I think it would have been fair for those who feel excluded to move me from the "human who occasionally does a sexist thing" to "sexist" especially if there was any other negative behavior that I might not be consciously aware of.

Another personal example that I struggle with even today. My brain has a hard time viewing posters in gender neutral terms. I caught myself as recently as yesterday defaulting to the position that a poster was male when I didn't actually know. This one is a subtle one but I have no doubt that at times I've probably come across as misogynistic because of this default my brain slides into (if I've done it to any of the posters here, sincerely I apologize and please know I'm trying to be better).

And all that previous gibberish to say, black and white thinking is the enemy. We are all capable of great and terrible things, often without always intending them, but almost never just one or the other. Now does this mean that everyone else couldn't just cut everyone slack and not call out behavior that feels/is exclusionary to them... sure. But as I've said a few times in this thread alone, at the end of the day I can control only my own actions and my reactions to other. I have to make sure I'm listening to the feedback and taking a hard look at my actions if I'm to have any hope of being a decent human.
I am willing to consider and will indeed consider all of this. Thanks for the thoughts.
apologies for any terrible proofing here, I find it nearly impossible to post from my phone but I couldn't let these thoughts sit
It all looked fine to me. And if I caused you to have thoughts that you couldn't let sit, Then I think I am doing a splendid job posting. (Or not?) :)
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Xenophon
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Re: Do We Really Have It Right?

Post by Xenophon »

ceeboo wrote:
Thu Sep 16, 2021 1:50 pm
Could you give me an example - I promise that I won't take any offense. You can use the accusation made in this thread if you would like.
I can take a run at it. Back on page 9 you said:
ceeboo wrote:
Tue Sep 14, 2021 11:19 pm
Because he is a man and you are a woman (Just kidding, relax).
It seems innocent enough on first reading but if I try to place myself in the same position as female posters here I can definitely see how it could come across as misogynistic. It reads as fairly dismissive to the idea that Lem has a valid point. And it is a common trope to accuse women that complain of being hysterical so your "joking, relax" likely reads as sexist and not as the light-hearted rib I suspect you likely intended.

Again it is easy for me to brush off or even just totally not notice the comment. I'm also not a female that has had to deal with a lifetime of this.

As a secondary example, I could totally see someone viewing this very exchange as evidence to the board's mysogny. Female posters have faced backlash over pointing out sexist behavior but here I am as a male being asked to highlight it in a polite manner. I can't imagine how frustrating that might be, so for my part in it I apologize.

That is why I think this whole exchange is so instructive to the OP. When we don't spend time considering how our posts are perceived by those from a ton of varying backgrounds we can often unintentially hurt others or derail our discussions.

ETA: I'd be remiss if I didn't point out that Lem called out the exact same comment I did but it was brushed aside. Adding weight to my second example, in my opinion.
He/Him

“If you consider what are called the virtues in mankind, you will find their growth is assisted by education and cultivation.”
― Xenophon
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Re: Do We Really Have It Right?

Post by ceeboo »

Xenophon wrote:
Thu Sep 16, 2021 2:17 pm
I can take a run at it. Back on page 9 you said:
ceeboo wrote:
Tue Sep 14, 2021 11:19 pm
Because he is a man and you are a woman (Just kidding, relax).
It seems innocent enough on first reading but if I try to place myself in the same position as female posters here I can definitely see how it could come across as misogynistic. It reads as fairly dismissive to the idea that Lem has a valid point. And it is a common trope to accuse women that complain of being hysterical so your "joking, relax" likely reads as sexist and not as the light-hearted rib I suspect you likely intended.
I don't buy that. (But I sincerely appreciate you tossing it out for consideration)

Lem said something about why I was addressing her and not honor with a quote of "I wonder why?" Now because I personally believe that Lem was obviously implying I was addressing her because she is a woman - I decided to play along with her, in my opinion, silly implication that the only reason I was addressing her was because she was a woman and that I was not addressing honor because he was a man. That wasn't true then and it's not true now. And I told her why I was addressing her, specifically, in a paragraph directly after my light-hearted rib. And I gave her the rib because I think she deserved it. Have we come to a place where we decide if we are allowed to give a light-hearted rib to someone based on their sex? How about the color of their skin? How about how tall they are? How about if the walk with a limp? How about if they have small hands? Brown eyes? It's silly! I gave Lem a rib because of here "I wonder why?" and what that was obviously implying.

In my opinion, when certain people see sexism everywhere. And I mean everywhere (like even in their scrambled eggs), this creates many problems on many levels. It most certainly creates problems for discussions.
As a secondary example, I could totally see someone viewing this very exchange as evidence to the board's mysogny. Female posters have faced backlash over pointing out sexist behavior but here I am as a male being asked to highlight it in a polite manner. I can't imagine how frustrating that might be, so for my part in it I apologize.
I don't buy this either. If someone sees our exchanges as misogynistic then I don't even know what to say or how to respond - other than to suggest that it's ridiculous.
That is why I think this whole exchange is so instructive to the opening post. When we don't spend time considering how our posts are perceived by those from a ton of varying backgrounds we can often unintentially hurt others or derail our discussions.
Well, if you're right, I don't know how any discussion can take place, anywhere, on any board on any planet, including Earth.
Cultellus

Re: Do We Really Have It Right?

Post by Cultellus »

Gorilla
Last edited by Cultellus on Sun Sep 19, 2021 1:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Do We Really Have It Right?

Post by Xenophon »

ceeboo wrote:
Thu Sep 16, 2021 2:45 pm
I don't buy that. (But I sincerely appreciate you tossing it out for consideration)
I didn't expect you would but I was happy to give it a go and I appreciate you giving me the opportunity. I don't think a back and forth on this will do much good, I believe we both have a pretty firm grasp on where we both sit.

That said I want to highlight one point because I think it is really important:
ceeboo wrote:
Thu Sep 16, 2021 2:45 pm
Have we come to a place where we decide if we are allowed to give a light-hearted rib to someone based on their sex?
We have if that rib 1)is aimed at someone that likely falls more in the category of "peer" than "friend" and 2)that rib contains charged language or tone that has historically been used as a weapon against the group that you're referencing.

Because again, what may have been intended as a light comment can actually be quite hurtful. And none of our comments exist in a vacuum. So if our goal is kindness and fostering an open and welcoming environment than I believe we absolutely must consider the words we use and the way we deliver them. That doesn't mean you can make mistakes and it doesn't mean we should eviscerate those that maybe cross the line. But to me it does matter.

My two cents and I don't expect agreement on this one. I'm content to let you have the last word on it.
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“If you consider what are called the virtues in mankind, you will find their growth is assisted by education and cultivation.”
― Xenophon
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Re: Do We Really Have It Right?

Post by Xenophon »

Cultellus wrote:
Thu Sep 16, 2021 2:58 pm
So, according to Xeno, our extreme conscientiousness should either prevent us from participating in a discussion and just submit the topic to someone else, or, our extreme conscientiousness entitles us to call out others and judge/assign misogyny or sexism to others even if that was not their intent. Conscientiously mute, or conscientiously self-righteous and victimized. Whatever makes us feel better than someone else is the right move here. Right?
I'm still participating in the dialogue, my willingness to acknowledge my part in the problem hasn't muted me nor has it muted anyone else.

And it isn't a competition about feeling better than anyone, I have enough of my own problems to sweat everyone else's. I started this line of discussion with examples of my own behavior that I know has been perceived badly (and rightly so in my opinion) it wasn't until Ceebo asked that I offered an example for him. For me this is about my own journey in trying to be a better person to my fellow humans. A big chunk of that is trying to read and understand others in a kind and forgiving light but it is also to understand the impact my words and actions can have on people. Those actions are not mutually exclusive.
He/Him

“If you consider what are called the virtues in mankind, you will find their growth is assisted by education and cultivation.”
― Xenophon
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Re: Do We Really Have It Right?

Post by Some Schmo »

When I am confronted by a reaction to something I've said that exposes a prejudice (or at least, when I'm accused of a particular prejudice), I will almost invariably react defensively. One thing I've noticed about myself: I'm quick to react inappropriately, and slow to react appropriately. I suppose that's because I'm only dismissive of people I don't respect. If someone I respect criticizes me, I will eventually come around and try to see it from their perspective.

My defensive reaction is generally the result of two things:

- I don't consciously see the truth in what's been said right away
- Unconsciously, I do intuit the truth of the criticism

Given that I believe this about myself, I tend to take these kinds of criticisms very seriously. I've had enough experience uncovering my own blind spots to understand how they work. The blindness comes from erroneous beliefs about myself and the world at large.

It's a painful process to uncover one of these blind spots, but it's really worth it. It leads to better relationships and a clearer understanding of everyone else. The pain of the process leaves strong scar tissue.
Religion is for people whose existential fear is greater than their common sense.

The god idea is popular with desperate people.
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Re: Do We Really Have It Right?

Post by Cultellus »

Gorilla
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