Do We Really Have It Right?

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Jersey Girl
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Re: Do We Really Have It Right?

Post by Jersey Girl »

ceeboo wrote:
Thu Sep 16, 2021 9:57 am
Jersey Girl wrote:
Wed Sep 15, 2021 2:01 am
I have a few comments re:sexism.
I have a few comments regarding sexism as well.

First, as one of the people that have been accused of being a sexist on this thread, I have exactly zero interest or desire to attempt making a defense from this accusation - nor do I have any interest in making any excuses concerning said accusation - The way I see it, the accusation leveled against me is either true or it's not true. If it's true then it is what it is - I am indeed a sexist and I own it. If it's not true then i think it would be rather silly to try to defend/or excuse something that isn't true. A third option simply doesn't exist. So as far as I am concerned, I will continue to consider the accusation and I will land wherever it is that I land on it. For the rest of you, I am more than happy to let each of you land wherever you land on it as well.

Having said that, I wanted to express a few opinions that relate directly to this thread and the many discussions found in this thread - "Do we really have it right?" First, I want to talk about the dangers of making an accusation like calling someone a sexist (or a white supremacist or a homophobe or a xenophobe or a nazi or an anti-Semite, etc) - Among the dangers, this can place a stop sign in the road of discussion - this can divert the discussion - this can alter the discussion - this can deflect from the discussion - this can end the discussions, full stop. After all, who wants to discuss things with a "sexist" or a "racist" or an "anti-Semite?" Rather than discussing things with these kinds of people, perhaps it would be better to throw then in the human waste pile and forget they even exist........ Woke Camp 101, in my opinion. Another potential danger in all of this is how the accused might become very hesitant to engage with someone who has labeled them and placed them in a negative category - They will be forced to weigh the risks involved and will likely decide on not engaging or challenging the ideas/thoughts/opinions of the accuser. Yet another example of how a protective shield can have significant impact on discussions - or prevent discussions from ever taking place.

Sometimes I wonder if these negative labels that are tossed out, are tossed by design and with intent. If they are. they sure provide a great reason to stop engaging and they also seem to provide a protective shield over the one doing the accusing. The accuser, in many instances, becomes almost untouchable and they now have a built in reason to stop discussions - After the accusation has been delivered, they can simply walk away with their protective shield firmly in place. And for the accused? They either try to make a defense (AS I have already said, I have no interest in that) or they leave it where the accusation was made and simply allow each person reading the thread to decide for themselves if the accusations are accurate, or not accurate, or somewhere in the middle (This is where I am choosing to leave it)

So, as far as this thread goes - "Do we really have it right?" - I think accusations from one board member made against another board member is very much a part of the wider discussions taking place here. And these accusations surely can play (and often do play) significant roles in and around online personas as well as how we see people from our side of the screen . I have to believe that accusations, of any flavor, play significant roles in the question "Do we really have it right?"

The floor is yours, if you would like it.
Thank you for your non response to my post.
We only get stronger when we are lifting something that is heavier than what we are used to. ~ KF

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ceeboo
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Re: Do We Really Have It Right?

Post by ceeboo »

Jersey Girl wrote:
Thu Sep 16, 2021 6:29 pm
Thank you for your non response to my post.
You're welcome.
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Re: Do We Really Have It Right?

Post by Xenophon »

ceeboo wrote:
Thu Sep 16, 2021 6:26 pm
Perhaps we are splitting hairs at this point? If you don't see it that way, let me know and I would be happy to discuss further.

Almost immediately after I did respond to Lem's question "I wonder why" - She made a post that she was leaving the thread. So, I'm not sure how much more introspection and/or consideration I could have had with Lem since Lem left the building. That was precisely why I told her that I hoped she would reconsider when she said it was her last post in the thread, as I thought more engagement might have provided some benefit to both of us (as well as possible benefit to all who are involved with the thread)
Hair splitting may indeed be the name of the game. My posting certainly wasn't intended to question your approach, each of us owns our own response and had you decided to just post nothing again on the thread that would be your choice (although I hope no one does that). Just trying to answer your questions from my perspective the best I could.
He/Him

“If you consider what are called the virtues in mankind, you will find their growth is assisted by education and cultivation.”
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ceeboo
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Re: Do We Really Have It Right?

Post by ceeboo »

Another possible factor as it relates to "Do we really have it right?"

I would like to see if I can take the recent Ceeboo/Sexist/Lem discussion and try to turn it into something that might be a bit more positive and perhaps even something that provokes thought as well as further discussion. (Lemons to Lemon-aide)

Let me lay this before you all and see where it goes - see if it sticks - and to ask if there is any meat on this bone.

I am all about the individual poster. My left earlobe usually starts twitching when I see individuals spoken about as a part of a group. I understand that this might cause me to not see, or appreciate, or recognize some things that others see, or appreciate, or recognize.

So, if it's true that I see individual posters - but I almost never see or recognize a particular individual poster as someone who also belongs to a group, might this be a reason that I could potentially have a blind spot to something like sexism, or more specifically, a blind spot to my potentially sexist behavior while engaging a female on this board?

Your thoughts are welcome and the floor is yours - If you would like it.
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Re: Do We Really Have It Right?

Post by Lem »

"In my opinion, when certain people see sexism everywhere. And I mean everywhere (like even in their scrambled eggs)"
I am going to treat this statement with seriousness. For the record, I have never observed sexism in scrambled eggs.
"this creates many problems on many levels. It most certainly creates problems for discussions."
continuing with the seriousness of my response above, I would disagree. It is statements such as "certain people see sexism everywhere… even in their scrambled eggs" that "create many problems."

If a clarification helps, here is just a very, very, VERY small handful of recent comments, said to me directly, that I have called sexist. In case you are thinking these surely must have come from only a few, and over a very long time, let me note that this sampling covers EIGHTEEN separate posts, by EIGHT separate posters, over less than FIVE months. [I am specifically not using names because this is about the comments, not the authors, which I explain in my last comment below.]
Because he is a man and you are a woman (Just kidding, relax)
Because if I had to deal with women like you or calm on a daily basis I would've killed myself a long time ago.
The more you write I'm starting to think your husband should probably hire someone to have sex with you, probably be the smartest decision he ever made
You're not the first, and won't be the last women that thinks about me when their eyes are closed and laying on their back...But if your interested, all I'm wearing is my garment bottomsright now. I hope that helps you tonight when your thinking about me
"I'm starting to see why less and less men want women in charge of anything."
"in exMo forums where my race and gender are known, some people can be very quick to respond and end the conversation...It's possible that it's a coincidence that these shut-downs have always come from women and that information is irrelevant. If I was being too specific, I apologize."
I expect she and others would suddenly get a serious case of the vapors.
Should the time come when you really want women to be treated as equals, I will continue to engage with you.
Just own you're reactions, maybe take a breath before swinging on someone for a perceived offense, [such as a reference to your period clouding your brain function]
I heard Lems husband even unplugs the alarm clock on the table beside the bed so there's absolutely no light, zilch, nada, like can't see his hand in front of his face dark. But hey, whatever it takes, right? I admire his courage.
your thinking is cloudy. Are you on your period?
But I know she wants to be treated like one of the guys. She hit me so I hit her back. I said what I said for one purpose: to jerk her chain because she deserved to have her chain jerked. She wanted to be pissed at me for being a sexist, so I gave her the ammo she wanted.
Lem wrote:[this is the quoter's change of my words, I posted none of this:]

Sexist, sexism, :roll: :roll: genitals, OMG, Sexism, :roll: :roll: Victim, Suffering, :roll: :roll: Ceeboo's a sexist, Ceeboo's hurtul :roll: :roll: :roll: )
Lem, I understand how difficult it is for you to understand a concept like individuality - I also recognize how badly you must see everything as being a mere part of a group. So to help you, I will give you a short lesson.

Everything I have posted to you on this thread has been directed at you, an individual person. Everything I have posted to you has nothing to do with whether you are a male of a female. It was directed at you. Specifically and only to you.

Now, once you wrap you mind around the foreign concept of individuality and how gigantically important, valuable and critical all of that really is, I will explain where and why sex was introduced....
But my response to you (even with the highly offensive genitals remark, '..had NOTHING to do with your sex. It had everything to do with you - a single person on a message board.

I hope that was educational.
by the way: I used a "lady" at the Burger King for Lem, Because we all know how critical the genitals are in the freaking story!
Fair enough, I don't think the guy has a valid point. (Sorry again Lem - Lady!!!!!!!!!)
Why did you start this thread? What the f___? I'm pretty sure most people around here are familiar with and understand that the comment is sexist. This isn't a g__d___ newsflash.

Don't complain when people respond to your f___ing posts. If you don't want a response, don't say anything.
but it seems that once a woman plays the sexism card, the man is in a no-win situation.
I could sense [Lem] meant those hurtful things and it was not a societal slip like ['your thinking is cloudy. Are you on your period?']
-------------

Enough examples. It was summed up well here:
I've noticed it can be difficult to encounter frustration with a woman and avoid using sexist tropes, exactly because of a long history of effective offense using them.
And here's a comment I made last april in which I apparently predicted a direction of this thread:
Lem wrote:
Wed Apr 28, 2021 10:02 pm

....It truly never occurred to me that when I point out a sexist comment, the other person thinks I am saying they are a bad person. What I am saying is "please don't use this sexist phrase, because it is hurtful to me as a woman." If they apologize and say sorry, I accept that apology, and if they stop using it, I certainly don't go forward thinking "that person is sexist." I simply assume they took my point, about a phrase that is likely to have been used in the past without realizing the damage. And hopefully, they learned something, and they won't say it again.

So many phrases and comments are habitual that it takes a while to get them out of our vernacular. As a woman, I point out very few of the sexist comments made here, or those made in my professional life, or those made in my social life, or those made by family members, or those I read in current newspapers and stories, etc. etc. etc., but I do appreciate having learned through this experience how incredibly hurt some people may feel when their sexist phrases are pointed out. It certainly explains why women who speak up are so viciously attacked.

Do those saying sexist things feel as much hurt as those receiving the crude sexist slaps in the face feel? Who knows. Maybe that hurt will be a topic somewhere in the future.…
And just one last one, to come full circle to the implication I see sexism in my scrambled eggs...
Lem wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 12:29 am

...Sometimes I wonder if my policy here of calling out only the absolutely most egregious sexist expressions is helping anyone. I comment on maybe 1 out of every 4 or 5 times I see it happen, and the times I don't it's because I am trying to avoid just what is happening in this thread from a few- the name calling, the condescending and abusive language, the demeaning assumption (invariably) that I "see sexism everywhere."

It's demoralizing to realize that when a woman stands up for herself, there are still plenty of people ready to shoot her down, and unfortunately they are some of the same people who have happily chatted with her in the past, as long as she kept her mouth shut about the sexism.

But, am I setting a good example for your son and daughter? Maybe not. Maybe the more pushback I get now, the less they may have in the future. It's a tough world. Thanks to those of you who have been supportive in this thread.
Last edited by Lem on Fri Sep 17, 2021 3:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
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ceeboo
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Re: Do We Really Have It Right?

Post by ceeboo »

Lem

First and most importantly, I would like to apologize to you, on the board, for my sexist posts. Some of the posts that you used as examples were authored by me and I am saddened by them. I am also ashamed to read them knowing they came from my keyboard. I'm sorry.

I am pleased that you have returned to the thread and I hope you continue to contribute to the thread. As I mentioned before, I think this thread can be valuable to many of us. It has already been extremely valuable to me on many levels. Your most recent post, while very hard for me to read, is very valuable to me as well.

I wanted to at least post this much now but after I read your post again, and do some more thinking, I may reply to more of it later.

And if your done with those scrambled eggs I was talking about earlier, I'm pretty sure I need them now, for my face.
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Re: Do We Really Have It Right?

Post by Lem »

ceeboo wrote:
Thu Sep 16, 2021 9:42 pm
Lem

First and most importantly, I would like to apologize to you, on the board, for my sexist posts. Some of the posts that you used as examples were authored by me and I am saddened by them. I am also ashamed to read them knowing they came from my keyboard. I'm sorry.

I am pleased that you have returned to the thread and I hope you continue to contribute to the thread. As I mentioned before, I think this thread can be valuable to many of us. It has already been extremely valuable to me on many levels. Your most recent post, while very hard for me to read, is very valuable to me as well.

I wanted to at least post this much now but after I read your post again, and do some more thinking, I may reply to more of it later.

And if your done with those scrambled eggs I was talking about earlier, I'm pretty sure I need them now, for my face.
Thank you. I apologize as well, for my part in any misunderstandings. I truly did mean it when I said last April:
"...I accept that apology, and... I certainly don't go forward thinking 'that person is sexist.' "

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ceeboo
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Re: Do We Really Have It Right?

Post by ceeboo »

Hey Lem

After thinking about all of this some more, I wanted to offer a few more comments related to you post.
Lem wrote:
Thu Sep 16, 2021 9:09 pm
.It truly never occurred to me that when I point out a sexist comment, the other person thinks I am saying they are a bad person.
Speaking only for myself, I can tell you that when you pointed out my sexist posts, I did think you were saying I was a bad person. Why this was the case for me, I truly do not know but I intend to give it more thought to see if I can discover the reason or reasons. At this moment, if I had to guess, I would guess the reason is somehow connected to a recipe that contains my ego, a self defense mechanism, and/or how I see myself - while not considering, caring or paying attention to how others might see me from their side of the computer. That last part is something I probably need to think about more and it's also probably something I need to try to do better at. Crazy how all of this brings me right back to the OP and the question "Do we really have it right?" Now that we are on page 13 of the thread, I am almost convinced that many of us (all of us?) most certainly do not have it right on at least some things, and this not having it right involves things that are much broader and deeper than what my OP was thinking about at the time I wrote it.
Do those saying sexist things feel as much hurt as those receiving the crude sexist slaps in the face feel? Who knows. Maybe that hurt will be a topic somewhere in the future.…[/size]
That's a really interesting question that I don't know the answer to either. If I had to guess, my guess would be that the answer is very dependent on the individual and that the answer will not be consistent among a larger number of people. In my specific scenario, I can tell you that it was hurtful to be shown my sexist comments (It was also saddening and embarrassing and shameful) but here is the real question in my mind: Why would it take this long - and why would I need someone else to spell it all out for me (like you did here, Lem) for me to see it? Again, I don't know the answers to that question but not knowing the answers has been bothering me quite a bit - So, I will continue chewing on all of it and look for a place I can land this plane. I hope to find a landing strip sometime soon (for my benefit) and I hope that this landing strip will be able to accommodate the plane I am in as well as all the baggage I have with me on board (Please don't miss the baggage reference, because I think it might play a significant role in all of this). Should I try to land the plane on an unfit landing strip and balls of fire start to engulf me, I would appreciate it if someone would consider throwing some water in my general direction.
It's a tough world
It sure is.

I am going to take a self-imposed 24 hour break from this thread - I need to do some thinking and reflecting. Upon my return, I hope to find more thoughtful and thought provoking contributions. Thanks to all!

Thanks for the post, Lem
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Re: Do We Really Have It Right?

Post by Some Schmo »

ceeboo wrote:
Fri Sep 17, 2021 10:05 am
So, I will continue chewing on all of it and look for a place I can land this plane. I hope to find a landing strip sometime soon (for my benefit) and I hope that this landing strip will be able to accommodate the plane I am in as well as all the baggage I have with me on board (Please don't miss the baggage reference, because I think it might play a significant role in all of this).
I agree, the baggage reference is significant. The older we are, the more baggage we have, and for most of us, we've been carrying it so long, we don't even feel its weight anymore. We've learned to live with it.

It reminds me of that old show The Biggest Loser (a weight loss "reality" show) where after several weeks on the show, after the remaining contestants had lost a lot of weight, they would have events where they would put on weighted vests carrying all the weight they had lost so far and go for a run or something. Invariably, they would talk about how they can't believe they had been carrying all that weight around. They couldn't believe how much better they felt without it, but would never have realized that before losing it.

I think our baggage (mental, emotional, cultural) is a lot like that, weighing us down, preventing us from doing all the things we'd like to do, or preventing us from reaching our true potential without us really being aware that it's holding us back. A hard one to overcome is the cultural baggage of our youth. The culture has changed significantly in the last 30 years, and people like me who grew up in the 70s and 80s have some things we really need to let go of to catch up with today's youth.
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ceeboo
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Re: Do We Really Have It Right?

Post by ceeboo »

Hey Schmo
Some Schmo wrote:
Fri Sep 17, 2021 1:44 pm
A hard one to overcome is the cultural baggage of our youth. The culture has changed significantly in the last 30 years, and people like me who grew up in the 70s and 80s have some things we really need to let go of to catch up with today's youth.
I'm not sure I am understanding what you're saying here. Could you elaborate a bit on this? Specifically regarding the "cultural baggage of our youth" and letting that go to "catch up to today's youth."

Thanks in advance.
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