Proof liberal Fascism.. calling themselves "brown shirts"

[_moksha]

I think the guy that banned Big Gulps was a conservative.

More like one of those so called "Nutritionalists". He didn't mind depriving 7-11 of their soda profits or me of my drinking enjoyment.

Down with nutrition! If all 7-11 customers were armed with Uzis, Bloomberg would have thought twice. The streets of Manhattan would have run with cola that day.

[_canpakes]

That immigration reform bill would have made it more likely for the Obama administration to deport a lot of these individuals.

And then these individuals would come right back across the border because that reform bill did not guarantee border security. Without border security, any promises to the taxpayer in that bill, are just pure bait and switch.

There is no such thing as 'guaranteed border security'.

[_ajax18]

There is no such thing as 'guaranteed border security'.

Yes there is, politicians just aren't willing to do it. We're supposed to be a sovereign nation where the politicians answer to the taxpayers. Unfortunately nontaxpayers are permitted to vote and we get results like this.

[_canpakes]

There is no such thing as 'guaranteed border security'.

Yes there is, politicians just aren't willing to do it. We're supposed to be a sovereign nation where the politicians answer to the taxpayers. Unfortunately nontaxpayers are permitted to vote and we get results like this.

I disagree, and would ask you to provide some examples of 'guaranteed border security'.

The problem with couching required conditions as absolutes is two-fold. First, if can be used as a cudgel to wield against any efforts that another will classify as not 'guaranteed' but that still represent a positive change; second, if believed to be attainable, it creates a foolish false sense of security.

[_Quasimodo]

I think the guy that banned Big Gulps was a conservative.

More like one of those so called "Nutritionalists". He didn't mind depriving 7-11 of their soda profits or me of my drinking enjoyment.

Down with nutrition! If all 7-11 customers were armed with Uzis, Bloomberg would have thought twice. The streets of Manhattan would have run with cola that day.

[_ajax18]

I disagree, and would ask you to provide some examples of 'guaranteed border security'.

Put the national guard on the border and militarize it. Fine employers who hire illegals. Build a wall. Will that keep them all out? Maybe not, but it'd be a lot less expensive than what is going on right now. They're paying INS agents to turn their head and look the other way, sometimes even facilitate immigrants in their journey.

The problem with couching required conditions as absolutes is two-fold. First, if can be used as a cudgel to wield against any efforts that another will classify as not 'guaranteed' but that still represent a positive change;

My point is that it's not a positive change for the taxpayer, just for the immigrant and for Democratic politicians who want their votes. For the rest of us, get used to western hemisphere socialism and a Latin American standard of living because that's where it's headed.

[_canpakes]

I disagree, and would ask you to provide some examples of 'guaranteed border security'.

Put the national guard on the border and militarize it. Fine employers who hire illegals. Build a wall. Will that keep them all out? Maybe not, but it'd be a lot less expensive than what is going on right now. They're paying INS agents to turn their head and look the other way, sometimes even facilitate immigrants in their journey.

A wall would be tremendously expensive, but perhaps we could reduce costs by having illegal laborers build it, right?

Using the National Guard has some advantages, but the Guard cannot take part in typical border enforcement actions including arrests, searches of suspects or the public, or evidence handling. This is a byproduct of the NG's own regulations but can be overcome through an authorization by Congress.

In any event, no matter the methods used, there still will be no such thing as 'guaranteed border security'. Trust me on this one; I live in a border state and see that any enforcement system can be bypassed or defeated. Tunnels are a favorite; they aren't exactly easy to detect when the originate south of the border and exit within a building north of it.

Even the Berlin Wall was breached occasionally, and it would be hard to find a more fortified wall within more ideal conditions. Now, try installing that scheme along the entire southwest border... it's going to cost a wee bit, yes?

There are definitely options to increase security but none of it comes cheap, nor is any of it instant. Add a reluctant Congress into the mix that has decided to table any reform (HR 15 as example) until next year at the soonest (Boehner's request) and you get the result that we see today.

The problem with couching required conditions as absolutes is two-fold. First, if can be used as a cudgel to wield against any efforts that another will classify as not 'guaranteed' but that still represent a positive change...

My point is that it's not a positive change for the taxpayer, just for the immigrant and for Democratic politicians who want their votes. For the rest of us, get used to western hemisphere socialism and a Latin American standard of living because that's where it's headed.

If that's the actual point that you want to make, then why mask it in a comment about 'guaranteed border security'?

As for the 'Latin American standard of living'... that's an interesting end point. It would be instructive to map out just how that happens. ; )

[_EAllusion]

Building a wall that is not easily defeated on the border would be obscenely expensive. Given that illegal immigration is already a net gain on the economy, it's hard to fathom how the cost of the wall could be cheaper than the price of illegal immigration. Is the wall fairy offering America a king's ransom if it builds one?

[_ludwigm]

FYI... because there are people who have forgotten it --- or never known

Berlin Wall

The Berlin Wall (German: Berliner Mauer) was a barrier constructed by the German Democratic Republic (GDR, East Germany) starting on 13 August 1961, that completely cut off (by land) West Berlin from surrounding East Germany and from East Berlin. The barrier included guard towers placed along large concrete walls, which circumscribed a wide area (later known as the "death strip") that contained anti-vehicle trenches, "fakir beds" and other defenses. The Eastern Bloc claimed that the wall was erected to protect its population from fascist elements conspiring to prevent the "will of the people" in building a socialist state in East Germany. In practice, the Wall served to prevent the massive emigration and defection that marked East Germany and the communist Eastern Bloc during the post-World War II period.

Who has built it?

Iron Curtain

During the Cold War, the border zone in Hungary started 15 kilometres (9.3 mi) from the border. Citizens could only enter the area if they lived in the zone or had a passport valid for traveling out. Traffic control points and patrols enforced this regulation.

Those who lived within the 15 kilometres (9.3 mi) border-zone needed special permission to enter the area within 5 kilometres (3.1 mi) of the border. The area was very difficult to approach and heavily fortified. In the 1950s and 1960s, a double barbed-wire fence was installed 50 metres (160 ft) from the border. The space between the two fences were laden with land mines. The minefield was later replaced with an electric signal fence (about 1 kilometre (0.62 mi) from the border) and a barbed wire fence, along with guard towers and a sand strip to track border violations.

Who has built it?


Then:

The outer fence became the first part of the Iron Curtain to be dismantled. After the border fortifications were dismantled, a section was rebuilt for a formal ceremony. On 27 June 1989, the foreign ministers of Austria and Hungary, Alois Mock and Gyula Horn, ceremonially cut through the border defences separating their countries.

The creation of these highly militarised no-man's lands led to de facto nature reserves and created a wildlife corridor across Europe; this helped the spread of several species to new territories. Since the fall of the Iron Curtain, several initiatives are pursuing the creation of a European Green Belt nature preserve area along the Iron Curtain's former route. In fact, a long-distance cycling route along the length of the former border called the Iron Curtain Trail (ICT) exists as a project of the European Union and other associated nations. The trail is 6,800 km (4,200 mi) long and spans from Finland to Greece.

Who have begun to dismantled it?


You know, I used to live behind the Iron Curtain, and touched The Wall...

[_Gunnar]

Besides being obscenely expensive, a border fence or wall would have seriously adverse environmental and ecological effects, which would have a further economic impact that would add greatly to the already obscene cost of building the wall.

http://afgj.org/splitting-the-land-in-two-ecological-effects-of-border-militarization

http://bioscience.oxfordjournals.org/content/57/1/96.full

http://www.no-border-wall.com/environmental-impacts.php