Election Litigation Status

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MeDotOrg
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Re: Election Litigation Status

Post by MeDotOrg »

Moksha wrote:
Tue Mar 02, 2021 6:05 am
MeDotOrg wrote:
Mon Mar 01, 2021 9:53 pm
As it turns out, a democracy can function while sentencing a former President to jail.
I could see the value of putting up the sign Palace of Alcatraz and telling Trump that he will be the new emperor at that location.
San Francisco has actually had its own Emperor.

Joshua Abraham Norton came to San Francisco to make his fortune, and lost it in commodities speculation. After disappearing for a while he came back to town in 1859, laying claim to the title Emperor of San Francisco.
Wikipedia wrote:Though Norton received many favors from the city, merchants also capitalized on his notoriety by selling souvenirs bearing his name. "San Francisco lived off the Emperor Norton," Norton's biographer William Drury wrote, "not Norton off San Francisco."

Norton had no formal political power; nevertheless, he was treated deferentially in San Francisco, and currency issued in his name was honored in the establishments that he frequented. Some considered him insane or eccentric, but citizens of San Francisco celebrated his imperial presence and his proclamations, such as his order that the United States Congress be dissolved by force and his numerous decrees calling for the construction of a bridge and tunnel crossing San Francisco Bay to connect San Francisco with Oakland.

On January 8, 1880, Norton collapsed at the corner of California and Dupont (now Grant) streets and died before he could be given medical treatment. According to the San Francisco Chronicle, upwards of 10,000 people lined the streets of San Francisco to pay him homage at his funeral. Norton has been immortalized as the basis of characters in the literature of Mark Twain, Robert Louis Stevenson, Christopher Moore, Morris and René Goscinny, Selma Lagerlöf, G.S Denning, and Neil Gaiman.
Image

Emperor Norton printed his own scrip, which was accepted by many local merchants.

Image

I could see a similar end for our previous President. I think it's more likely he'll become Emperor of the Home Shopping Network.
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Res Ipsa
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Re: Election Litigation Status

Post by Res Ipsa »

Emperor Norton is one of my favorite historical stories. I’d be just fine with Trump becoming his Manhattan counterpart. ;)
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Moksha
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Re: Election Litigation Status

Post by Moksha »

MeDotOrg wrote:
Fri Mar 12, 2021 12:16 am
I could see a similar end for our previous President. I think it's more likely he'll become Emperor of the Home Shopping Network.
He could preside at ceremonial events where he could be counted on to give a rambling speech about himself.
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Re: Election Litigation Status

Post by Gunnar »

Res Ipsa wrote:
Fri Mar 12, 2021 5:05 am
Emperor Norton is one of my favorite historical stories. I’d be just fine with Trump becoming his Manhattan counterpart. ;)
I very seriously doubt that New Yorkers would ever grant Trump the same affection and deference San Franciscans granted to Emperor Norton. I think he will be lucky to avoid winding up in prison for most of what remains of his life.
No precept or claim is more suspect or more likely to be false than one that can only be supported by invoking the claim of Divine authority for it--no matter who or what claims such authority.
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Moksha
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Re: Election Litigation Status

Post by Moksha »

More documentation on Trump's attempted election fraud:
A lost recording of Trump pressuring a Georgia election official was uncovered in an investigator's trash folder.

https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-r ... der-2021-3
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Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: Election Litigation Status

Post by Doctor CamNC4Me »

Incontrovertible proof of Trump being a criminal. He should go to jail.

- Doc
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Re: Election Litigation Status

Post by Brack »

Yahoo has a long and good article about the wild and baseless conspiracy theories of Sidney Powell and Rudy Giuliani and the defamation lawsuits against them.

The wild ride that made Rudy Giuliani, 'Kraken' lawyer Sidney Powell, and Fox News targets in the mother of all defamation cases
https://finance.yahoo.com/amphtml/news/ ... 28439.html
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Re: Election Litigation Status

Post by Gunnar »

One of the biggest problems is that it probably doesn't even occur Trump and his followers that there is anything fundamentally wrong with lying and cheating, if necessary, to win elections in order to gain and retain political power.

I remember reading some time ago that Trump once candidly answered a reporter who asked him why he told so many lies by saying, "Well, it works for me; I'm President, and you're not!"

I suspect that Trump doesn't even care if most of his base knows he's a pathological liar, and is convinced that even knowing that, they would still vote for him.
No precept or claim is more suspect or more likely to be false than one that can only be supported by invoking the claim of Divine authority for it--no matter who or what claims such authority.
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Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: Election Litigation Status

Post by Doctor CamNC4Me »

For the insanely, and I'm not being hyperbolic, insanely stupid people who acted like there was election fraud:

https://www.cnn.com/2021/03/22/politics ... index.html

tl;dr (because of course you don't read) - Sydney Powell admits only idiots would've believed her claims and that all her claims were bogus and impossible.

You damned thick-skulled "F"s tore this country apart for a wink and a nudge.

- Doc
Hugh Nibley claimed he bumped into Adolf Hitler, Albert Einstein, Winston Churchill, Gertrude Stein, and the Grand Duke Vladimir Romanoff. Dishonesty is baked into Mormonism.
honorentheos
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Re: Election Litigation Status

Post by honorentheos »

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Tue Mar 23, 2021 3:29 am
For the insanely, and I'm not being hyperbolic, insanely stupid people who acted like there was election fraud:

https://www.cnn.com/2021/03/22/politics ... index.html

tl;dr (because of course you don't read) - Sydney Powell admits only idiots would've believed her claims and that all her claims were bogus and impossible.

You damned thick-skulled "F"s tore this country apart for a wink and a nudge.

- Doc
To be clear, her lawyers are arguing that her statements aren't legally actionable because they were clearly her opinion stated in support of her preferred candidate rather than assertions of fact. That's...well, it's an argument that could be disastrous if it becomes precedent setting.
Reasonable people understand that the “language of the political arena, like the language used in labor disputes … is often vituperative, abusive and inexact.” Watts v. United States, 394 U.S. 705, 708 (1969). It is likewise a “well recognized principle that political statements are inherently prone to exaggeration and hyperbole.” Planned Parenthood of Columbia/Willamette, Inc. v. Am. Coal. of Life Activists, 244 F.3d 1007, 1009 (9th Cir. 2001). Given the highly charged and political context of the statements, it is clear that Powell was describing the facts on which she based the lawsuits she filed in support of President Trump. Indeed, Plaintiffs themselves characterize the statements at issue as “wild accusations” and “outlandish claims.” Id. at ¶¶ 2, 60, 97, 111. They are repeatedly labelled “inherently improbable” and even “impossible.” Id. at ¶¶ 110, 111, 114, 116 and 185. Such characterizations of the allegedly defamatory statements further support Defendants’ position that reasonable people would not accept such statements as fact but view them only as claims that await testing by the courts through the adversary process.

...

In short, the speech at issue here is not actionable. As political speech, it lies at the core of First Amendment protection; such speech must be “uninhibited, robust, and wide-open.” N.Y. Times Co., 376 U.S. at 270. Additionally, in light of all the circumstances surrounding the statements, their context, and the availability of the facts on which the statements were based, it was clear to reasonable persons that Powell’s claims were her opinions and legal theories on a matter of utmost public concern. Those members of the public who were interested in the controversy were free to, and did, review that evidence and reached their own conclusions—or awaited resolution of the matter by the courts before making up their minds. Under these circumstances, the statements are not actionable. Keohane, 882P.2d at 1299; NBC Subsidiary, 879 P.2d at 11, 12; Milkovich, 497 U.S. at 20.
Combined with the defense Trump's lawyers put forward during impeachment, it seems the GOP wants to codify the idea political speech is above the law. One can be as reckless as one wishes as long as one is simply asserting a partisan position. That's kinda yikes. That said, the outcome of their argument, at least in regard to the claims of fraud, remains that the lack of successful legal challenge undermines the idea there was a valid claim of fraud. But that's a bit nuanced. So. Headlines.
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