Anyone following the Gabby Petito case? (Breaking)

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Re: Anyone following the Gabby Petito case? (Breaking)

Post by Jersey Girl »

Gadianton wrote:
Wed Oct 20, 2021 10:24 pm
If anyone is interested (I doubt it, but still)
I've been benefiting. Just been following this thread instead of checking CNN.
I consider WFLA out of Florida to be a good source of information. If I see them going live, that's where I go for accurate information. If I see CNN with a new headline, I go straight to WFLA. CNN doesn't always get the reporting right. I'm just saying.

Also if you are following this thread and you see that I've made a mistake, please correct that for me. I often have multiple windows open at the same time on a day like today. News sources, youtubers, maps, and stuff like that.
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Re: Anyone following the Gabby Petito case? (Breaking)

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Jersey Girl wrote:
Thu Oct 21, 2021 12:28 am
Can I tell you something? More than one of those persons are youtubers making a buck off streaming their protests. I can name one of them for you via messages for you if you'd like to take a peek at what is called the Crama Community on YouTube, not to be confused with the True Crime Community.

… nothing except the youtubers who are streaming for bucks. Going up on their property so far as I know, is trespassing. One of the youtubers (same one I had in mind) did that recently.
Sigh … that’s pretty gross. No. It’s worse. Is social and cultural cancer.

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Re: Anyone following the Gabby Petito case? (Breaking)

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Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Thu Oct 21, 2021 12:42 am
Jersey Girl wrote:
Thu Oct 21, 2021 12:28 am
Can I tell you something? More than one of those persons are youtubers making a buck off streaming their protests. I can name one of them for you via messages for you if you'd like to take a peek at what is called the Crama Community on YouTube, not to be confused with the True Crime Community.

… nothing except the youtubers who are streaming for bucks. Going up on their property so far as I know, is trespassing. One of the youtubers (same one I had in mind) did that recently.
Sigh … that’s pretty gross. No. It’s worse. Is social and cultural cancer.

- Doc
Yeah, it is. To be somewhat fair, there are youtubers from the actual True Crime Community who are streaming WFLA in their coverage. Those are not top tier True Crime youtubers but they are interesting and for the most part, factual though not always. The bottom of the barrel on youtube is the Crama Community who are out there definitely protesting on the scene and streaming their crap on youtube and showing out for bucks. It's like how you know where to go on reddit. Only it's youtube. There's a whole lot of choices to be had including the bottom feeders.

Among the top tier youtubers are: Stephanie Harlowe (tends to report using a deep dive method after the fact), Scott Reisch (criminal defense attorney out of Denver who posts up to the minute regarding the law and constitutional rights and one other who I hardly ever watch is It's a Crime. There's no real reason I don't watch her except for time constraints. She has collabed with Reisch, as has Harlowe collabed with him.

I do try to get my news and information directly from local stations and official statements from local, state, and federal agencies. If they quote a state statute, I'm on the state's website seeing it for myself. As I think you said about me at one point, I like to go deep in the weeds on a case like this. The deeper the better so far as I am concerned.
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Re: Anyone following the Gabby Petito case? (Breaking)

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So while I was out driving over to Walmart and thinking about human decomp, I was thinking that a couple or three things could bring about somewhat swift preliminary findings depending on the state of the decomp and what types of partial remains were available. I'm not entirely up on human remains under water but here goes anyway...

1. If they have a skull with intact teeth (or can find teeth) they could use dental records and come up with something fast.
2. If they have an arm or hand even with skin slippage, they could see tattoos and come up with something fast.
3. If they have to DNA test the remains, I really don't know how long that would take to process DNA from a body that had been underwater.
4. If they find body parts/remains that were scattered and not under water, I wonder if that would make DNA testing easier and faster?
5. It's possible that submerged remains would be in less a state of decay than remains that were left on the ground in heat and humidity.

I'll check out The Body Farm and see if it's got anything about submersed human remains.

Aren't I a little ray of sunshine around here? ;)
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Re: Anyone following the Gabby Petito case? (Breaking)

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Jersey Girl wrote:
Thu Oct 21, 2021 1:22 am

5. It's possible that submerged remains would be in less a state of decay than remains that were left on the ground in heat and humidity.
I'll take #5 for $200 Alex (RIP).

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Abstract

Recovering bodies from water is a common task for any medical examiner or coroner office. Unfortunately, there will be a significant postmortem interval before many of these remains are found. A thorough scene investigation must be undertaken to determine if the location of the death and that of the body recovery are the same. Decomposition in a wet environment differs from that in other settings, both in the changes that occur and the rate at which they occur. It is essential that the forensic pathologist or medicolegal death investigator recognize and appreciate the uniqueness of immersed and submerged remains. The typical decomposition changes proceed more slowly in the water, primarily due to cooler temperatures and the anaerobic environment. However, once a body is removed from the water, putrefaction will likely be accelerated. Postmortem changes are not only affected by water temperature, but also by current as well as obstacles and structures, both natural and man-made, that may interact with the remains. The anaerobic nature of decomposition for wet or submerged remains may result in adipocere formation, a unique and fascinating process that results from incomplete transformation of lipids by bacteria. Insect and animal species feeding on the remains are different for submerged bodies. Postmortem predation may cause external defects that mimic injuries and should be interpreted with care. Forensic pathologists and medicolegal death investigators must be aware of the postmortem changes that may occur with submerged and immersed bodies.

Introduction

The accurate interpretation of postmortem changes is an essential skill for any forensic pathologist or medicolegal death investigator. That being said, postmortem changes can assist or hinder a death investigation. Perhaps the most beneficial feature of postmortem change is in assisting with estimating the postmortem interval, though the imprecision of this estimation is well recognized and should be taken into account. Characteristic changes that occur to a body after death follow a somewhat predictable timetable and placed into the context of the death scene and witness accounts, as available, provide the investigator with a rough estimate of the time of death. On the other hand, postmortem changes alter the appearance of the body, making wounds and other evidence of the body's interaction with the environment more difficult to interpret or even recognize. Artifacts introduced by decomposition obscure external morphologic features of the individual and putrefaction alters key autopsy observations such as organ weights and tissue integrity. Advanced decomposition may completely preclude any detailed gross or histologic examination of major organs.

Establishing cause and manner of death for bodies recovered from a liquid environment, typically from water, is challenging enough without the additional complexity of interpreting postmortem changes. One must first establish that the recovery location is the primary death scene. For example, a death may occur on land the body subsequently placed in the water as a means of disposal. Alternatively, a strong current or tidal activity may move the body a considerable distance from where the decedent entered the water. Particular attention should be paid to anything weighting the body down, external wrappings like blankets, curtains or sheets, clothing on the body, and the presumed circumstances that would have placed that body in the water environment. Once that is accomplished, attention may be focused on the condition of the remains, evidence of interaction between the body and the surroundings, and proper interpretation of postmortem animal predation.


Decomposition in Water


Decomposition progresses far differently in a liquid medium compared to what occurs in air. Similar to the usual decomposition process that occurs in a dry environment, postmortem changes in water are affected by temperature, animal predation, clothing, and microorganisms. Additional variables such as current and the physical changes brought about by saturation of the tissue will alter the appearance of a body located in water. The author and others have observed that postmortem decomposition proceeds rapidly after the body is removed from the liquid environment. For that reason it is recommended that the postmortem examination not be delayed for any significant length of time after a body is recovered from the water (1).

Early Postmortem Changes and Signs of Immersion

If a body of water is the primary death scene and the body has been immersed for only a short period of time, the position of the body will be affected by clothing and any personal effects on the body (Image 1). If the individual has drowned, typically the body will initially submerge and assume what has been called the “drowning position.” This is where the anterior aspect of the individual faces the bottom of the body of the water and the extremities and head hang downward toward the bottom while the individual's back is toward the surface (Image 2) (2). In shallow water, the hands, knees, dorsal aspect of the feet, and the forehead may drag along the bottom, creating postmortem cutaneous abrasions that may be difficult to differentiate from antemortem injuries (Image 3). These abrasions will be exaggerated in a strong current. As putrefaction progresses and gases are formed from bacterial activity, the body will typically surface unless entangled or the buoyancy is altered by clothing or personal effects. In a strong current or rough sea state the remains may strike rocks or brush with enough force to create the appearance of significant external trauma to the body.



Perhaps the most well-known external change that immersion in liquid has on the body is wrinkling of the skin, particularly involving the hands and feet (3). Traditionally this has been called “washerwoman's hands” or “washerwoman's changes,” though a better designation on the autopsy report would be cutaneous changes of immersion (Image 4). Cutis anserina or goose flesh is another cutaneous change of immersion and is caused by rigor of the erector pilli muscles within the skin. Both of these changes, wrinkling and cutis anserina, will occur as a postmortem change and do not require the individual to be alive upon entering the water (2). The usual postmortem changes of vascular marbling, dark discoloration of skin and soft tissue, bloating, and putrefaction occur in the water as they do on land though at a different rate, particularly in cold water (4). Sloughing of the skin, particularly involving the hands and feet, is common with prolonged immersion (Image 5).


Drowning victims frequently have fluid collections in the pleural cavities at autopsy regardless of the postmortem interval. While some of the pleural fluid may represent true effusion occurring as part of the drowning process, fluid accumulation in the pleural spaces is also commonly present in bodies recovered from the water that have undergone decomposition irrespective of the cause of death. A similar phenomenon is seen with the presence of dirt and vegetation in the respiratory tract. Some aspiration of foreign material may occur during the drowning process, though water and debris may also enter the respiratory tree in the postmortem period, particularly in turbulent water. Compared to nondecomposed bodies recovered from water, bodies that have undergone decomposition and recovered from water have been found to have increased pleural fluid accumulation, increased animal predation, and more commonly have dirt and vegetation in the lower respiratory tract (5). Rigor mortis and livor mortis are typically present in bodies recovered from the water though the onset and waning of these classic postmortem changes may be altered by water temperature, current, changing of body position due to movement, and level of activity prior to death. Pink discoloration of the teeth and gums, an observation once thought to be a sign of drowning, is likely due to lividity in these tissues occurring while the body is in the aforementioned drowning position (6).

Temperature and Current

In most cases, the temperature of the water will be cooler than the ambient air temperature. Cooler temperatures generally slow the decomposition process. Exceptions include hot tubs and tropical bodies of water. Current has primarily a mechanical effect on bodies in water. The body itself may be dragged for a distance, creating artifacts that can be mistaken for injuries. The remains or clothing may also get caught on rocks, branches and other objects in the water, creating artifacts that require proper interpretation (Image 6). Not only will a strong current transport the remains for a moderate or even long distance, but other objects in the water can get caught up in the current and come into contact with the remains in a similar manner. In the ocean or fast running rivers and streams the body may strike rocks or brush creating postmortem abrasions and lacerations. Actual injuries may be difficult to appreciate due to leaching of blood from the wounds by the liquid environment. A strong current will enhance the leaching process and a careful assessment for any vital reaction is required to distinguish postmortem from antemortem trauma on the body. Water temperature and current will affect the rate of cooling for a body in a liquid environment. The core temperature of the body at the time of recovery is even less helpful in determining postmortem interval when the body is recovered from water.


Adipocere

Adipocere formation may occur in wet or immersed bodies. Adipocere is a yellow-brown, waxy material composed of long chain hydrocarbons such as oleic, palmitic, and stearic acids. It is produced by the conversion of neutral lipids to these compounds as part of the putrefaction process. Both enzymes in the body and within bacteria contribute to the conversion of lipids present in the body to the components of adipocere. Inadequate oxygen combined with a surplus of lipids results in insufficient microbial degradation. Adipocere has a characteristic appearance and is generally resistant to further decomposition (Images 7 and ​and88). The formation of adipocere usually occurs over a somewhat lengthy postmortem period, typically several months (7-9). However, relatively rapid formation of adipocere has been described (10).



Animal Predation


Animal predation, including insect activity, is very different in the water environment. In some cases, the body will be floating on the surface and the usual arthropod predators such as blowflies and carrion beetles will have access to exposed tissue. The immersed portion of the body will be subject to different predators. Aquatic insects may alter the appearance and condition of the remains. Large animals such as turtles, large fish, and large crustaceans will cause tissue damage that in some cases may mimic trauma to the body. Smaller fishes, crabs, shrimp, and invertebrates prey on soft tissue and if given the opportunity can completely deflesh exposed parts of the body. Fish, turtles, and other animals may aggressively feed on remains and in the ocean environment, large carnivores such as sharks will create postmortem artifacts. It is not unusual for small fish and crustaceans to gain access to the interior of the body through skin and soft tissue defects or even normal body orifices (11,12). Examples of rapid skeletonization of remains have been noted in tropical waters where carnivorous predators are abundant, such as the Amazon region of South America (Image 10). In the ocean, several species of sharks and other large carnivorous fish commonly feed on human remains. Large portions of human tissue, including entire extremities, have been recovered from the stomachs of sharks with some frequency. Sharks possess several rows of teeth and commonly, the teeth may be recovered from a bite wound. In most cases it will be concluded that the shark fed on the remains after the individual was deceased.


Conclusion

Determining the cause and manner of death for bodies recovered from water can be challenging. The challenge becomes even greater as the postmortem interval increases. The progression of decomposition changes in a liquid environment is altered by temperature, current, interaction between the remains and the physical environment, and animal predation. While postmortem putrefaction takes place as it does in a dry environment, differences in bacterial flora and an anaerobic atmosphere alter the usual chemical processes and with significant postmortem intervals may result in the conversion of fats to adipocere. Forensic pathologists and medicolegal death investigators must be familiar with the expected postmortem changes that occur in immersed and submerged bodies as well as postmortem artifacts such as animal predation that may be misinterpreted as antemortem injuries.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6474513/
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Re: Anyone following the Gabby Petito case? (Breaking)

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WFLA Twitter. I don't know how else to put this here. Don't know if it can be linked.
WFLA NEWS
@WFLA
·
4h
NEW - Attorney for #BrianLaundrie's family tells
@WFLAAllyson
:

"Chris and Roberta will wait for the forensic identification of the human remains before making any additional comments."
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Re: Anyone following the Gabby Petito case? (Breaking)

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Attorney reveals why Laundrie family didn't initially talk to police

Steven Bertolino, an attorney for the Laundrie family, explains why the family initially refused to talk with police after Gabby Petito was reported missing.
https://www.cnn.com/videos/us/2021/10/2 ... pt-vpx.cnn
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Re: Anyone following the Gabby Petito case? (Breaking)

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Waitaminute. They didn't say what kind of notebook.
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Re: Anyone following the Gabby Petito case? (Breaking)

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JUST found this on CNN. :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o
"As they went further in, Chris ventured off the trail into the woods. He was zigzagging in different areas, law enforcement was doing the same thing. And Roberta Laundrie was walking down the trail," Bertolino said.

"At some point, Chris locates what's called a dry bag. The dry bag is a white bag, laying in the woods, say 20 feet or so off the trail."

Bertolino said, according to Chris Laundrie, the dry bag was in some brambles and he didn't want to it up, because he wanted his law enforcement to see it. However, Bertolino said Laundrie "couldn't find the law enforcement," because they were then out of sight and didn't want to leave the bag there with a news reporter standing nearby, so he picked it up.
"He did meet up shortly with law enforcement, they looked at the contents of the bag. At that time, law enforcement officers showed him a picture on the phone of a backpack that law enforcement had located also nearby and also some distance off the trail," Bertolino told CNN.

"At that point, the Laundries were notified there was also remains near the backpack, and they were asked to leave the preserve."
https://www.cnn.com/2021/10/21/us/brian ... index.html

A...DRY bag? :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o
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Re: Anyone following the Gabby Petito case? (Breaking)

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Seriously, where are you people when I'm up having murder/suicide epiphanies in the middle of the night? Pray (atheists, you too) that the notebook (paper OR electronic) was in the dry bag. PRAY that the contents of the notebook are recoverable. PRAY that the contents tell the story...partial lies or not, because truth will be present somewhere between the lines.

Theory...guy kills his girlfriend in the throes of a narc rage. He drives back to Florida (funded by using her bank card) to bring the van and himself back home. Feeds his parents a line of crap when he gets back. Gabby is going to meet up with her friend in (wherever it was supposed to be) and fly back later. Meets up with his family members for the last time at Fort DeSoto, they don't know it's the last time they'll ever all be together again, but he does. He goes home, packs up his stuff, leaves the burner phone and his wallet behind (because he's reached the final “F” it stage) tells his parents he's going to take a hike (he means it) and don't come looking for him. He takes the Mustang to Carlton Reserve and goes off into the wilderness to off himself but before he does, he composes a suicide note that either says goodbye OR includes a confession that describes what happened and why it happened and puts the notebook in the dry bag ensuring that it will be found intact, then takes the Taurus 380 he allegedly owns and shoots himself to death.

Because the guy didn't go into the swamp to let himself be torn apart by panthers, alligators, or other forms of wildlife including wild boars...die that way. He's not into suffering. He simply went there to sort himself out or had already sorted himself out(I think so), and decided to off himself.

Do I think he was remorseful? Perhaps, but I tend to think not. I think he figured that he boxed himself into a corner, couldn't face a trial, or life in prison, and headed for the nearest exit.

Let's just see how it goes...

If you all think I am insane with the true crime stuff, feel free to keep it to yourself. ;)

I need to check the timeline again. I believe the Petito parents informed the Laundrie parents that they were going to call the police on 11 Sep. His parents at first reported on 17 Sep that they hadn't seen him since the 14th. Then, they changed that to the 13th. So...he already had the heads up that LE had been notified and he got out of Dodge before her body was located so he didn't have to face the consequences of what he had done because narcs aren't equipped to deal with consequences that aren't coming from them. Consequences coming TO them? They're gone. Because they cannot withstand the narcissistic injury involved in a court trial and public scrutiny/condemnation that goes with it.*

I'll try to refine this later. Or tomorrow. Which is actually now.

*Which is exactly why Chris Watt went belly up and confessed to his crimes. He said he confessed because he didn't want to put the families through a trial. Nonsense. He didn't want to put himself through a trial. He could barely keep himself from jumping out of his own skin during the sentencing phase, particularly during the victim impact statements.
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