Thucydides' Trap: US-China and Trump

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Thucydides' Trap: US-China and Trump

Post by _honorentheos »

Harvard political science professor and researcher Graham Allison has been increasingly cited in various publications of late for his work in evaluating the conflicts that have arisen between existing and rising powers. His term for this, Thucydides' Trap, makes for an interesting and informative opportunity to google dive into a spectrum of works. And perhaps come out the other end a little less comfortable with the state of the world, too.

This article from The Diplomat helps explain the historical context from which Graham named the concept:

In Thucydides’ history, human emotion made conflict inevitable, and at several points where peace was possible, emotion propelled it forward. In the beginning (my add: before the beginning of the Peloponnesian War), there is a set of speeches in Sparta debating the possibility of going to war with Athens. Archidamus, the Spartan king, tells the Spartan people not to underestimate the power of Athens and urged that Sparta “must not be hurried into deciding in a day’s brief space a question which concerns many lives and fortunes and many cities, and in which honor is deeply involved – but we must decide calmly.” However, Sthenelaidas, a Spartan ephor, advocated, “Vote, therefore, Spartans, for war, as the honor of Sparta demands.” The Spartans followed Sthenelaidas, which led to a war of honor and fear against the Athenians.

In the seventh year of the Peloponnesian War, at the battle of Pylos, the Athenians won a major victory over Sparta. Because of their loss, Sparta sent envoys to Athens offer a peace treaty. The Spartan envoys enjoined the Athenians to “treat their gains as precarious,” and advised that “if great enmities are ever to be really settled, we think it will be, not by the system of revenge and military success… but when the more fortunate combatant waives his privileges and, guided by gentler feelings, conquers his rival in generosity and accords peace on more moderate conditions than expected.” However, the Athenians, led by Cleon, who Thucydides described as the most violent man in Athens, accused the Spartans of not having right intentions, and made further demands on Sparta for a return of territories that Athens had previously ceded to Sparta before the outbreak of the Peloponnesian War, resulting in a continuation of the war.

Source: http://thediplomat.com/2015/05/the-real ... ides-trap/

From Professor Allison himself in a work sourced below,

More than 2,400 years ago, the Athenian historian Thucydides offered a powerful insight: “It was the rise of Athens, and the fear that this inspired in Sparta, that made war inevitable.” Others identified an array of contributing causes of the Peloponnesian War. But Thucydides went to the heart of the matter, focusing on the inexorable, structural stress caused by a rapid shift in the balance of power between two rivals. Note that Thucydides identified two key drivers of this dynamic: the rising power’s growing entitlement, sense of its importance, and demand for greater say and sway, on the one hand, and the fear, insecurity, and determination to defend the status quo this engenders in the established power, on the other.

One need not be a close student of world affairs to guess that the rise in interest in Allison's work corresponds with the rise of China's power and the growing sense that the full face of The United States of America's power and influence has waxed to it's fullest and is on the wane. Graham has himself written and been interviewed on just that particular aspect of the subject, including a work published in The Atlantic and much quoted again in this December's edition. From Graham's Harvard bio regarding his Atlantic article:

In a major essay for The Atlantic, Graham Allison argues that the best lens for clarifying the dynamics of the U.S.-China relationship is the Thucydides Trap: the structural stress that occurs when a rising power threatens to displace a ruling power. In reviewing the record of the past 500 years, Allison and the Belfer Center’s Thucydides Project have identified 16 cases that reflect this pattern of hegemonic challenge. In 12 of the cases, the rivalry between the rising and ruling powers produced war. Yet as Allison points out, the 4 cases that did not end in bloodshed show that war is not inevitable.
Source: http://belfercenter.ksg.harvard.edu/pub ... _trap.html

Here is a table of the 16 instances he reviewed:
Image

When The Atlantic published it's December edition, the articles it included were written unaware of Trump's election. They included a cautionary interview with one Henry Kissinger that was amended for the online addition to include follow-up material with Kissinger on his take of the election. The original pre-election results included this bit about the problem facing the 45th President:

J.G.: What would you advise the 45th president to do first?

HK: The president should ask, “What are we trying to achieve, even if we must pursue it alone?” and “What are we trying to prevent, even if we must combat it alone?” The answers to these questions are the indispensable aspects of our foreign policy, which ought to form the basis of our strategic decisions.

The world is in chaos. Fundamental upheavals are occurring in many parts of the world simultaneously, most of which are governed by disparate principles. We are therefore faced with two problems: first, how to reduce regional chaos; second, how to create a coherent world order based on agreed-upon principles that are necessary for the operation of the entire system.

J.G.: Crises always intervene before presidents find time to create a coherent world order, no?

HK: Practically all the actors in the Middle East, China, Russia, and to a certain extent Europe are facing major strategic decisions.

J.G.: What are they waiting to do?

HK: To settle some fundamental directions of their policies. China, about the nature of its place in the world. Russia, about the goals of its confrontations. Europe, about its purpose, through a series of elections. America, about giving a meaning to its current turmoil in the aftermath of the election.

...

J.G.: Are Sino–American relations more consequential for U.S. national security than Islamist terrorism?

HK: Islamic terrorism is consequential for the prospects of international order in the short term. Our relations with China will shape international order in the long term. The United States and China will be the world’s most consequential countries. Economically, this is already the case. Yet both nations are having to undergo unprecedented domestic transformations. As a first step forward, we ought to try to develop an understanding of how joint Sino–American action could stabilize the world. At a minimum, we should agree to limit our disagreements; more sophisticatedly, we should identify projects we can undertake together.

J.G.: How should the 45th president make China policy?

HK: After its early years, America was lucky enough not to be threatened with invasion as it developed, not least because we were surrounded by two great oceans. As a consequence, America has conceived of foreign policy as a series of discrete challenges to be addressed as they arise on their merits rather than as part of an overall design. Not until the post–World War II period did we begin to think of foreign policy as a continuous process, even in seemingly tranquil circumstances. For at least 20 years, we forged alliances as a way to put down markers as much as to design a strategy. Henceforth, we must devise a more fluid strategy adjustable to changing circumstance. We must therefore study the histories and cultures of key international actors. We must also be permanently involved in international affairs.

J.G.: Constant engagement with China?

HK: China is an illustration. For most of its history, China also enjoyed isolation. The only exception is the 100 years it was dominated by Western societies. It did not have to continuously engage with the rest of the world, especially outside of Asia. But it was surrounded by relatively smaller nations incapable of disturbing the peace. Until the Xinhai Revolution in 1911, China’s relationships with other countries were managed by the Ministry of Rites, which classified each foreign country as a relative tributary to Beijing. China did not have diplomatic relationships in the Westphalian sense; it did not consider foreign countries equal entities.

J.G.: I think there are countries along its borders that don’t feel they are treated as equal entities.

HK: China is undergoing a tremendous process of domestic change. President Xi Jinping laid out two goals called the “Two 100s”—the 100th anniversary of the Communist Party and the 100th anniversary of the Communist state. The first will be in 2021; the second in 2049. By the time the Chinese reach the second 100, they will be, by their own estimate, the equal of any other country in the contemporary world, and will, by their reckoning, be able to insist on absolute material and strategic equality, including with America. Some Chinese strategists are in effect saying, “If we were in the American position, would we not at least consider preventing another country from reaching equality?” So that is a latent source of tension.

The Chinese internal discussions offer at least two answers. The hard-liners will say, “The Americans are visibly declining. We will win. We can afford to be tough and look at the world with sort of Cold War–ish attitudes.” The other position—apparently that of President Xi—is that confrontation is too dangerous: Cold War with the U.S. would keep China from reaching its economic goals. A conflict with modern weapons might exceed the devastation of the First World War and leave no winners. Hence in the modern period, adversarial countries must become partners and cooperate on a win-win basis.

J.G.: So Xi is a moderate?

HK: President Xi, for his part, has put forward two objectives for China. The first is “Asia for the Asians.” The second is an effort to turn adversaries into partners. In my opinion, we must try to make this second framework the dominant theme of U.S.–China relations. The Chinese view the world very differently than we do. We have to combine our own diplomatic and military capabilities to respond to this reality. But is that possible in the current world, with its weapons of mass destruction and cyber capabilities?

One obstacle is a cultural gap: The basic American attitude is that the normal condition of the world is peaceful, so if there’s a problem, someone is causing it. If we defeat that person or country, everything will become harmonious again.

By contrast, the Chinese do not believe in permanent solutions. To Beijing, a solution is simply an admission ticket to another problem. Thus, the Chinese are more interested in trends. They ask, “Where are you going? What do you think the world will look like in 15 years?”

As a result of this cultural gap, when the American and Chinese presidents meet, there is too often an ambiguous outcome. Progress is made on immediate short-term issues—climate change, some economic concerns. But the basic agenda of developing a common concept for the future is given less priority, in part because of the pressure of time and the impact of the media waiting outside the conference center.


Source: http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/arc ... 5868/#body


Following the revelation of Trump's surprise election, the following was added:

J.G.: What’s your biggest concern about global stability coming out of this election?

HK: That foreign countries will react with shock. That said, I would like to keep open the possibility that new dialogues could emerge. If Trump says to the American people, “This is my philosophy of foreign policy,” and some of his policies are not identical to our previous policies but share their basic objectives, then continuity is possible.

J.G.: How is China going to react?

HK: I’m fairly confident that China’s reaction will be to study its options. I suspect that will be Russia’s reaction as well.


Source: http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/arc ... er/505868/

Think about this and reflect on Trump's call with the President of Taiwan on Friday, a move that breaks US "one china policy" that has been in place since Kissinger and Nixon first crafted America's re-engagement with the Center Kingdom. China's response appears to be a public dismissal of a "green" foreign policy team unaware of how things work. Trump's response was to tweet amusement that the US can provide arms to Taiwan but he can't accept a phone call from their President. Correct or otherwise, one can't help but feel that we are in uncharted territory. And history is against our coming out of it without blood being shed unless we can avoid Thycydides' trap. Unfortunately, since we are the existing strong power, it means tamping down on our "fear, insecurity, and determination to defend the status quo", or in other words the very things Trump campaigned on as the core of his foreign policy whatever that may mean.

This is getting long, and will end without satisfying conclusion other than to point out the information since it hasn't apparently been brought up on the forum yet. I'll end with a link to another article from The Atlantic on China and what appears to be it's own retrenchment into national interest and rejection of the West. It was the cover story and titled, "China's Great Leap Backward".

You can guess what it suggests, and again, all written when the US was anticipating the election of Hillary Clinton and a traditional US foreign policy perhaps more Nixon than Obama but one with an informed view of the past and apprehension for the future peace.

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/arc ... rd/505817/

Note: Have I ever mentioned that December, for reasons I don't fully understand, feels more Gothic horror than jolly festival to me? That reading scary stories on Christmas Eve became a tradition of mine when I was young enough to have a hard time sleeping on Christmas Eve so finding a book to read was a way to kill time and my earliest memories of this include Poe and Stoker along with Dickens and they felt of a family. Perhaps this is then fitting to the season.

* ETA: I should also note that the reason The Atlantic is cited so often in the OP is that I subscribe to it in paper form. I've had the December edition for a couple of weeks but not had time to really sit and enjoy it until this morning. The two articles on China and the notion that history is betting against us led to more reading but it was the magazine articles the left the initial impression first and formed the germ that became the OP. I had been following the news about Trump's calls and strange, unsettling activities as the First American on the world stage with some chagrin before hand. Reading about concern over China-US relations independent of the Trump factor was just a turbo shot of espresso.

I've thought before that the world was spared an unfortunate conflict between the US and China under Bush due to 9/11. We forget that leading up to that fall, tension with China was escallating with events from captured spy planes to North Korean relations being in the news. One could almost sense the Pentagon was seeking to justify their budgets in a post-Cold War world and locking onto Sino-US relations as the foundation for US military policy. We needed a cold conflict and tension to keep the money rolling in. The terrorists in 2001 provided an actual hot war and we pivoted where the money was easier to justify. But that was perhaps just a postponing of the inevitable when the hawks are in office and the US looks around and realizes the next biggest guy on the block has been currying favors with all our old friends while we've been preoccupied elsewhere.
The world is always full of the sound of waves..but who knows the heart of the sea, a hundred feet down? Who knows it's depth?
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Re: Thucydides' Trap: US-China and Trump

Post by _Gunnar »

Wow! what a profound and thought provoking OP! What you said there rings so very true in the light of recent events. I'll be pondering what you said there for a long time to come.
No precept or claim is more likely to be false than one that can only be supported by invoking the claim of Divine authority for it--no matter who or what claims such authority.

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Re: Thucydides' Trap: US-China and Trump

Post by _Chap »

Could you try to condense that into a Tweet?

If you can do that, there is some hope that Trump may take some notice. But unfortunately, I don't think he reads stuff much.

In case it needs saying, the OP seems to me excellent and timely. Unfortunately, the quirks of the US electoral system just gave the country a modern Cleon for its next president, even though most people who voted wanted his opponent.

There is much to be said against ancient Athenian direct democracy, but at least the majority of voters got their own way, and did not have to see their votes go through a special 'black box' that produced the opposite result. When they got Cleon's policies, it was because they voted for them!
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That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
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Re: Thucydides' Trap: US-China and Trump

Post by _honorentheos »

A fun little quiz based on quotes from news articles related to the topic above that have occurred since the OP was posted:

1) Fill in the blank in the following quote:

“..._______ is looking to change the world order to one where national power is more important than international law, a system where the strong do what they will, and the weak do what they must."

2) Who said the following?

"Dr. Schwab has observed in his book The Fourth Industrial Revolution that this round of industrial revolution will produce extensive and far-reaching impacts such as growing inequality, particularly the possible widening gap between return on capital and return on labor. The richest one percent of the world’s population own more wealth than the remaining 99 percent. Inequality in income distribution and uneven development space are worrying. Over 700 million people in the world are still living in extreme poverty. For many families, to have warm houses, enough food and secure jobs is still a distant dream. This is the biggest challenge facing the world today. It is also what is behind the social turmoil in some countries.

"All this shows that there are indeed problems with world economic growth, governance and development models, and they must be resolved. The founder of the Red Cross Henry Dunant once said, “Our real enemy is not the neighboring country; it is hunger, poverty, ignorance, superstition and prejudice.” We need to have the vision to dissect these problems; more importantly, we need to have the courage to take actions to address them."

3) The following statement refers to either the Belt and Road Initiative (BRI) being advanced by China, or the Transpacific Partnership (TPP) abandoned by Trump after taking office but on life support with Japan and Canada attempting to keep alive a TPP 11. Fill in the blanks in the following quote:

"_____________ strongly opposes new international rules, like those in ______________, that restrict government freedom to participate in and direct economic activity, ensure a free and open digital economy, and require greater wholesale transparency, participation, reason giving and review in domestic regulatory administration."

4) The following statement refers to either the Belt and Road Initiative (BRI) being advanced by China, or the Transpacific Partnership (TPP) abandoned by Trump after taking office but on life support with Japan and Canada attempting to keep alive a TPP 11. Fill in the blanks in the following quote:

"____________ is megaregulatory in scope, with substantive requirements addressing a very wide range of trade, investment, and other regulatory issues. Beyond reductions in tariffs in parties such as (specific individual participating country) with high duties in some sectors, _____________’s obligations liberalize trade in financial and other services as well as goods, promotes the digital economy and e-commerce, and addresses rules of origin in international supply chains, customs facilitation and intellectual property protections. __________ imposes disciplines on state-owned enterprises, government procurement, anti-competitive business practices, and corruption. Taken together, these provisions seek to promote economic integration across the Asia-Pacific region by ensuring wide space for market ordering; business freedom to locate, invest and operate; and security for firms’ investment, digital, IP, and other assets. ___________’s environmental and labor protective provisions, while not insignificant, are by comparison relatively weak.

5) The following statement refers to either the Belt and Road Initiative (BRI) being advanced by China, or the Transpacific Partnership (TPP) abandoned by Trump after taking office but on life support with Japan and Canada attempting to keep alive a TPP 11. Fill in the blanks in the following quote:

"____________ is the development vehicle – the “hardware of trade and investment” and the final pillar on which ___________’s claim to global leadership rests.

"Somewhat paradoxically, given the investment focus on hydrocarbon pipelines, ____________ also represents the vehicle through which ___________ is likely to shape the contours of the emerging international post-carbon economy. The Paris Agreement in the UN Framework Convention on Climate Change is a keystone document in this respect.

"A combination of the climate emergency and market behaviours are making fossil fuel energy production increasingly uneconomic. This has spurred an accelerating transition away from fossil fuels and toward renewable energy generation.

"_______________ is a world leader in green and alternative energy technologies. Through ___________ it is well-placed to be the dominant player in facilitating the transition and roll-out of renewable energy infrastructure... This is especially so since ______________ has ceded ______________ influence in international climate politics through its repudiation of proactive climate policies.

"Leadership on international climate action is one area in which _____________ can develop significant soft power cache, particularly with developing countries of the global south."

6) Read the following quote and then select which of the following pairs most closely match based on historical precedents and briefly explain your answer:

a: U.S and Russia/ U.S. and China
b: U.S. and China/ U.S. and Great Britain
c: China and Russia/ U.S. and U.S.
d: Britain and Spain/ U.S. and China


The quote:

A top Chinese general has a warning for any US leaders planning an arms race in space: be prepared to lose.

Outspending a rival power into economic exhaustion might have helped the US win the cold war", said Qiao Liang, a major general in the Chinese air force who co-wrote the book Unrestricted Warfare: China’s Master Plan to Destroy America. But he said it would not work against a wealthy manufacturing powerhouse like China.

“China is not the Soviet Union," Qiao said in an interview with the South China Morning Post, a news partner of POLITICO. "If the United States thinks it can also drag China into an arms race and take down China as it did with the Soviets … in the end, probably it would not be China who is down on the ground."

Qiao’s words come as both Washington and Beijing are pouring money and resources into an increasingly militarised space race that some security specialists and former US officials fear is heightening the risk of war. The aggressive manoeuvres include US President Donald Trump’s proposal for a stand-alone Space Force – which Qiao dismissed as “an unwise move” – and efforts by both countries to develop laser and cyber weapons that could take out each other’s satellites.

The rivalry is plainly on the minds of leaders at the Pentagon, which cites “space” 86 times in a new threat assessment of China’s military. It also warns that the People’s Liberation Army (PLA) is working on “enabling long-range precision strikes” and developing directed-energy weapons for use in orbit.

7) The US recently approved the sale of almost $2B in weapons to Taiwan. True or False?

8) Explain why you chose the answer for Question 7.


9) The US, EU and China have trade agreements with the developing nations of Africa that define the extent of their influence on the continent. Which of the following statements is false?

a: China has become the largest creditor, accounting for over 14% of sub-Saharan Africa's total debt stock.
b: The US is the largest investor on the African continent with over $54B in foreign direct investment.
c: There are over 10,000 Chinese-owned firms operating in Africa as of 2018.
d: US-Africa trade relations are based on the Africa Growth and Opportunities Act, which defines reciprocal, two-way trade between the US and developing African economies.
e: US exports to Africa have averaged $19B annually while two-way trade has fallen from $100B in 2008 to $39B in 2017.

10) True or False? Following the G20 summit, the Trump administration signaled it would be willing to ease restrictions on sales to Huawei in exchange for Chinese agreement to resume buying US agricultural products despite concerns over security issues related to Huawei components being used in US telecommunications equipment.
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Re: Thucydides' Trap: US-China and Trump

Post by _Dr. Shades »

J.G.: How is China going to react?

HK: I’m fairly confident that China’s reaction will be to study its options. I suspect that will be Russia’s reaction as well.

Who the Hell is "J.G.?"
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Re: Thucydides' Trap: US-China and Trump

Post by _Doctor CamNC4Me »

Last edited by Guest on Mon Jul 15, 2019 2:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.

Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.
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Re: Thucydides' Trap: US-China and Trump

Post by _honorentheos »

Jesus Gais. It's a history thing, Romans or something. See, there was this pedant who couldn't be bothered with prioritizing information and drawing basic conclusions who commented once on a thread posted over two years ago and then.....HEY LoOK, it's a picture of Perfume!

Image
The world is always full of the sound of waves..but who knows the heart of the sea, a hundred feet down? Who knows it's depth?
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Re: Thucydides' Trap: US-China and Trump

Post by _moksha »

What a shame to have Trump be the face of America when the world is asked to choose between the American dollar and the Chinese renminbi.
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Re: Thucydides' Trap: US-China and Trump

Post by _moksha »

moksha wrote:What a shame to have Trump be the face of America when the world is asked to choose between the American dollar and the Chinese renminbi.

Oh yeah? What if we put Nocchi on the dollar bill?
Last edited by Jersey Girl on Tue Jul 16, 2019 10:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Thucydides' Trap: US-China and Trump

Post by _Dr. Shades »

honorentheos wrote:Jesus Gais. It's a history thing, Romans or something. See, there was this pedant who couldn't be bothered with prioritizing information and drawing basic conclusions who commented once on a thread posted over two years ago and then.....HEY LoOK, it's a picture of Perfume!

??? I only asked a simple question, nothing more. Whence the hostility?
"Finally, for your rather strange idea that miracles are somehow linked to the amount of gay sexual gratification that is taking place would require that primitive Christianity was launched by gay sex, would it not?"

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