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Re: Ben Jacobs is reporting that Greg Gianforte assaulted hi
Posted: Thu May 25, 2017 2:13 pm
by _Xenophon
I'm curious if this event hasn't come too late to change the election results; last I read roughly 2/3 of ballots had already been cast prior to Wednesday. And although polls have Gianforte ahead (although probably not as much as he should be), I'm not sure they can be trusted... special election polls are notoriously inaccurate.
It is also unclear to me (perhaps someone else knows the answer) as to if Gianforte gets to hold his seat, assuming he wins, and is convicted of the assault. If he isn't allowed to, does it go to another special election or is that seat just appointed to another Republican Rep?
Re: Ben Jacobs is reporting that Greg Gianforte assaulted hi
Posted: Thu May 25, 2017 4:25 pm
by _Some Schmo
Xenophon wrote:I'm curious if this event hasn't come too late to change the election results; last I read roughly 2/3 of ballots had already been cast prior to Wednesday. And although polls have Gianforte ahead (although probably not as much as he should be), I'm not sure they can be trusted... special election polls are notoriously inaccurate.
I heard that the 2/3 was an estimate based on previous elections and that the number could shrink if this incident mobilizes/energizes voters. The other thing is that election day voters are traditionally the late deciders (i. e. swing voters). If a lot of them show up, especially energized by what happened, it could make a difference.
All that said, I still expect Gianforte to win. I have little doubt there are plenty of GOP voters out there who will approve of this violence when they hear it was a "liberal reporter" (according to the candidate's BS statement).
Xenophon wrote:It is also unclear to me (perhaps someone else knows the answer) as to if Gianforte gets to hold his seat, assuming he wins, and is convicted of the assault. If he isn't allowed to, does it go to another special election or is that seat just appointed to another Republican Rep?
Great question.
Re: Ben Jacobs is reporting that Greg Gianforte assaulted hi
Posted: Thu May 25, 2017 4:38 pm
by _The CCC
I don't know Montana law, but a misdemeanor here carries jail time of up to one year. It would be interesting to see him in jail and serve in Congress. Or is this just another case of IOKIYAR.
Re: Ben Jacobs is reporting that Greg Gianforte assaulted hi
Posted: Thu May 25, 2017 4:42 pm
by _Xenophon
Some Schmo wrote:Xenophon wrote:It is also unclear to me (perhaps someone else knows the answer) as to if Gianforte gets to hold his seat, assuming he wins, and is convicted of the assault. If he isn't allowed to, does it go to another special election or is that seat just appointed to another Republican Rep?
Great question.
To answer my own question, he will probably get to hold the seat. It looks like expulsion would be the only way that he would be removed. Giving precedent, and
Paul Ryan's own words, it appears unlikely that he would face expulsion.
Relevant Text(warning, this link goes to a pdf):Congressional Research Service wrote:Under Article I, Section 5, clause 2, of the Constitution, a Member of Congress may be removed
from office before the normal expiration of his or her constitutional term by an “expulsion”
from the Senate (if a Senator) or from the House of Representatives (if a Representative) upon a formal
vote on a resolution agreed to by two-thirds of the Members of that body present and voting.
While there are no specific grounds for an expulsion expressed in the Constitution, expulsion
actions in both the House and the Senate have generally concerned cases of perceived disloyalty
to the United States, or the conviction of a criminal statutory offense which involved abuse of
one’s official position. Each house has broad authority as to the grounds, nature, timing, and
procedure for an expulsion of a Member. However, policy considerations, as opposed to questions
of authority, have appeared to restrain the Senate and House in the exercise of expulsion when it
might be considered as infringing on the electoral process, such as when the electorate knew of
the past misconduct under consideration and still elected or re-elected the Member.
To your point, CCC. The charge, although carrying a maximum of six months, does not require him to go to jail. I know he has the resources to at least significantly delay or reduce this charge so doubt it will amount to much.
Re: Ben Jacobs is reporting that Greg Gianforte assaulted hi
Posted: Thu May 25, 2017 5:37 pm
by _Some Schmo
There's a meta-conversation going on now over whether this incident is a direct result of the culture of reporter/media hate fostered by Drumpf's campaign, and the violence at his rallies.
When the question was initially asked I thought, "Ya think?!" It's amazing to see Drumpf supporters try to distance themselves from the incident (not to mention hilarious).
Re: Ben Jacobs is reporting that Greg Gianforte assaulted hi
Posted: Thu May 25, 2017 6:10 pm
by _The CCC
Re: Ben Jacobs is reporting that Greg Gianforte assaulted hi
Posted: Thu May 25, 2017 6:16 pm
by _Xenophon
Only if that last "R" stands for rich and not Republican (It's OK If You Are Republican, for Dr. Shades
). Let us not delude ourselves, the rich and famous (especially non-minority) get a huge leg up in our legal system no matter the party affiliation. If you have the money and influence to fight, you will always fair better than poor people committing the same crimes.
Re: Ben Jacobs is reporting that Greg Gianforte assaulted hi
Posted: Thu May 25, 2017 6:58 pm
by _subgenius
Xenophon wrote:...(snip)...[The Rich] will always fair better than poor people committing the same crimes.
can you back this claim up with some verifiable evidence/statistics?
and yes, you said crimeS....plural
Re: Ben Jacobs is reporting that Greg Gianforte assaulted hi
Posted: Thu May 25, 2017 7:36 pm
by _Xenophon
subgenius wrote:can you back this claim up with some verifiable evidence/statistics?
and yes, you said crimeS....plural
I know you are generally just a troll but this seems especially dense for you, honestly I thought you were smarter. Literally like 3 seconds of googling will reveal that their are essentially two justice systems, one for the rich and another for the poor.
I refer you first to The Sentencing Project. A non-profit that literally spends 100% of its time researching and highlighting these issues in order to help the less fortunate.
Their 2013 report to the UN Human Rights Committee is quite fascinating if you can be bothered to take the time to read(warning, this is a pdf).
And here is an excerpt from an interview between Research Gate and Marc Mauer, Executive Director of The Sentencing Project (in case you can't be bothered to read their website or highly sourced report)Mauer wrote:While the law is theoretically race- and class-neutral, in practice access to resources creates great disparities in how justice is dispensed in the U.S. Poor communities and indigent defendants are disadvantaged at each stage of the criminal justice process, including: law enforcement policies such as "stop and frisk" are employed heavily in low-income communities of color, even though the vast majority of persons stopped by police have committed no crime; money bail as a condition of pretrial release results in the detention of poor people, limiting access to counsel and causing family hardship; indigent defendants have to rely on court-appointed attorneys, many of whom are inexperienced and/or maintain high caseloads; given the limited availability of publicly-funded treatment programs, access to such services as an alternative to incarceration is much more available to defendants with family resources to pay fees.
Mauer again wrote: In general, wealthy people are not exploiting the system, but rather are able to take advantage of the rights afforded to everyone under our system of government to a degree that is not available to poor people. This plays out in the ability to post bail, to hire capable defense counsel, to present a plan for alternative sentencing, and other areas. Rather than criticize their ability to do so, we should instead hold this up as the standard of justice for all people, not just those with means.
And if the reading is too much, here are two lovely graphs for you to contemplate on why having a public defender can put you at a disadvantage when compared to being able to afford your own attorney.
SourceAnd here is one final study from Ohio State University (again, pdf warning). And although they would show that overworked public defenders does not tell the whole story, they would also show that:
An econometric study of all felony cases filed in Denver, Colorado, in 2002,
shows that public defenders achieved poorer outcomes than their privately
retained counterparts, measured by the actual sentences defendants received
edited for typos
Re: Ben Jacobs is reporting that Greg Gianforte assaulted hi
Posted: Thu May 25, 2017 9:08 pm
by _Kevin Graham
This is hilarious. The best eye witness account of the incident comes from a FOX News reporter. Her version is being spread everywhere except for.... FOX News's top shows.
Why?
Because her testimony doesn't jive with their preferred narrative of "Republican at all costs." In fact her eye witness account is incriminating against this moron. Today in the car I heard Rush Limbaugh bragging about this incident calling the man a "manly guy" and the reporter a "millennial dish rag."
"I did see the whole thing, when Gianoforte grabbed him by the neck, both hands, slid him to the side, body-slammed him, and then got on top of him and started punching and yelling at him."
Fox News Had The Best Reporting On Journalist Attack, But Its Top Hosts Ignored It