A good move

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

Come on bro, this is literally the textbook definition of an ad hominem fallacy. McCain's title on a congressional committee is no more relevant than Trump's title as the commander in chief. I get it, you're a liberal, but you can do better than this. And you're citing someone who is literally a hiss and a byword to the modern conservative movement. Surely you know that isn't going to get you anywhere? He's spent the last half of his career pissing all over everything he supposedly stood for at one point. Like how he voted against repeal today. Just like how he stabbed people in the back and supported bailouts back in 08, which is what cost him that election. The man is a snake and an embarrassment. He cares so much about the veterans he jumps at every half baked opportunity to send men off to be maimed and die away from their families in service of his ego. He's an 80 year old senator with brain cancer, making a jackass out of himself in recorded hearings, that's been in office since I was in diapers and embodies everything that's wrong with the plutocracy. If the people of Arizona had any sense they'd remove him from office. If McCain had a tiny fraction of the honor he claims he'd resign without hesitation. ____ brain cancer and he still has the audacity to remain in office, like it's his right of nobility.

Uh. I didn't commit the fallacy. But you just did. Man. Lol. What's wrong with you?

Anyway, I actually appreciate your participation on these threads because it's helped me pass time while I've been Making America Great Again, and it forced me to research the issue much more than I would have otherwise. So, kind of a win for all of us getting smarter on a tricky issue.

- Doc

[_Jersey Girl]

Listen I have to get on the stick over here with in real life but let me say this much based on your above. It's already been established that Tricare doesn't cover transition surgery. What it does cover is hormone therapy and mental health support.

What are you thinking about when you say "potential medical expenses and time issues for medical recovery for transition treatment" and would those be any different than say, the type of hormone therapy (or mental health services) that you or I might need and are covered were we both still in active duty/active duty dependent status? [/i]

Aside from the fact that eventually I'm certain surgery would most likely be included at some point, because that's how these things roll, what most people don't realize is that a unit incurs the cost of TDYs in their annual travel budget for Soldiers who need care that fall outside of what a locality can provide. So, Soldiers and leaders who need to go to x-y-z locale either don't get to go because this Soldier has burned through the unit's TDY budget, or they have to find an alternative way to get there which is unlikely.

So. Say a trans Soldier is allowed to remain and he begins hormone therapy and psyche therapy odds are that's going to be a lengthy process and will require him to go TDY A LOT. The transitioning Soldier would most likely be obligated to go to top notch professionals so the Army or DoD covers its own ass legally. Odds are you're going TDY for care. That's very expensive, very time consuming, and the unit would have to cover down for the Soldier for his taskings, deployments. We're not even talking about the Soldier not getting his required training, required professional development, and working within his required duty description if he is gone too much. There are a host of complications that are far to laborious and detailed to get into on this forum that would consume a lot of his leadership's time when they're trying to stick to this FY's training and operational obligations.

And as much as the last two paragraphs might seem confusing and boring, it doesn't begin to cover the sheer amount of time his leadership will spend managing him, counseling him, coordinating for him, so on and so forth which would be a huge distraction. Either the Soldier gets neglected because leadership has no alternative but to focus on their operational mission, or the Soldier becomes a sort of time and resource black hole until he most likely gets discharged for one reason or another.

- Doc

I completely missed this post. While searching online, I discovered that the Pentagon (2016) approved gender reassignment surgery for active duty. I can go dig up a link if I need to.

So, if that is the case as you predicted it is, then not only does the TDY drain the unit budget, loss of manpower etc., it also prevents the service member from being deployed which really does effect readiness.

Searching my mind for a comparable situation...what about the case of active duty with a special needs/disabled dependent who is given a humanitarian assignment PCS? That's only for three years or something, right?

So...could the trans active duty be given a humanitarian assignment during transition that involves surgery/therapy/hormone treatment for 36 months (?) and serve in a support position of some kind (dual MOS?)...I think I'm talking out my ass now.

;-)

How are they accommodating the needs of trans active duty right now? We don't know.

[_Jersey Girl]

Here's the Pentagon approving gender reassignment surgery when medically necessary effective date 1 Oct 2016. They didn't define "medically necessary" in this case, but by golly they approved it anyway.

http://www.military.com/daily-news/2016 ... roops.html

Stars and Stripes | 21 Sep 2016 | by Corey Dickstein

WASHINGTON -- The Pentagon will provide sex-change operations to some active-duty transgender service members if a military doctor determines that surgery is required to treat the individual's gender dysphoria, a Defense Department spokesman said Tuesday.

The department will begin providing transgender service members on active duty all "medically necessary" treatment starting Oct. 1, said Air Force Maj. Ben Sakrisson, the Pentagon spokesman. Treatment could include behavioral health care, hormone therapy, and in some cases gender reassignment surgery. Service members must be diagnosed as stable in their preferred gender for 18 months before they can receive treatment.

"The Secretary of Defense has made clear that service members with a diagnosis from a military medical provider indicating that gender transition is medically necessary will be provided medical care and treatment for the diagnosed medical condition," Sakrisson said.

Defense Secretary Ash Carter on June 30 repealed the longstanding ban on transgender men and women serving openly in the U.S. military, but he gave the services one year to determine and implement many of the changes that would be necessary for transgender service members – ranging from policies on communal shower facilities to physical fitness standards.
It remained unclear at the time whether the Pentagon would consider gender-reassignment surgery "medically necessary" or an elective, cosmetic surgery, a defense official said. The Defense Department will not pay for any such surgeries not required for medical reasons.

Transgender service members who are approved for sex-change surgery will be treated at either a military hospital or a private hospital through Tricare, if there is not a qualified provider at the military facility, Sakrisson said. Surgeries, and all other care, will be funded through the Defense Health Program appropriation.

The department's announcement of its determination came just days after lawyers representing imprisoned Army Pvt. Chelsea Manning said the Army had agreed to provide her gender-reassignment surgery. Manning, who is serving a 35-year sentence in the Fort Leavenworth Disciplinary Barracks in Kansas for leaking classified and sensitive material to the website WikiLeaks, was recommended for the surgery by a doctor in April, according to her attorneys with the American Civil Liberties Union.

Manning, formerly known as Bradley, began a short-lived hunger strike Sept. 9 before the Army approved the surgery Sept. 13, according to the lawyers.

"I am unendingly relieved that the military is finally doing the right thing. I applaud them for that. This is all that I wanted — for them to let me be me," Manning said in a statement.

The Pentagon will not provide gender-reassignment surgery to non-active duty Tricare beneficiaries, Sakrisson said. Those individuals, however, will be eligible for behavioral health care and hormone treatments beginning Oct. 3.

Estimates of the number of transgendered individuals serving in the military vary greatly, but most officials agree there are several thousand among the ranks. The RAND Corporation, which assisted the Pentagon in studying the issue, estimates there are between 4,000 and 12,000 transgender troops on active duty and in the reserves. The Palm Center, a research institute based in San Francisco, estimates there are about 15,500.

Pentagon officials have said they do not anticipate large numbers of transgender troops to qualify for surgery. They said the vast majority of transgender men and women are treated with hormone therapy.

The Pentagon expects to pay between $40,000 to $50,000 during the course of a service member's life to treat gender dysphoria. The Pentagon is likely to spend between $2.4 to $8.4 million annually on the treatment, according to RAND.

[Guest]

I completely missed this post. While searching online, I discovered that the Pentagon (2016) approved gender reassignment surgery for active duty. I can go dig up a link if I need to.

So, if that is the case as you predicted it is, then not only does the TDY drain the unit budget, loss of manpower etc., it also prevents the service member from being deployed which really does effect readiness.

Searching my mind for a comparable situation...what about the case of active duty with a special needs/disabled dependent who is given a humanitarian assignment PCS? That's only for three years or something, right?

So...could the trans active duty be given a humanitarian assignment during transition that involves surgery/therapy/hormone treatment for 36 months (?) and serve in a support position of some kind (dual MOS?)...I think I'm talking out my ass now.

;-)

How are they accommodating the needs of trans active duty right now? We don't know.

Well, there are all sorts of scenarios that currently apply. I'm just extrapolating from personal experience. One E-7 I had was basically allergic to Arizona. The Army kept him in our unit, in Arizona, and paid for years' worth of specialists and TDYs and everything in between before getting him healthy enough to medically discharge. I'll spare you the budgetary, logistical, and operational costs but it was significant for everyone involved. This NCO, although a great person, was a black hole of time and resources. I had a few of him in AZ, a few in AL, and well, pretty much anywhere you went in the Army you had a few of them.

There is absolutely zero doubt in my mind it would be similar for a trans Soldier in terms of cost and time to a unit. It impacts everyone top to bottom.

But. We bend over backwards for all sorts of Soldiers, family members, and everything in between. Addiction. Sickness. Non-combat injuries. Elective surgery. Pregnancy. Family stuff. Mental health. All of it. So, adding a trans person here or there really isn't an overall impact on the military from a big picture perspective.

But let's not kid ourselves. They're going to be expensive and a drain on unit resources. I just think if you're going to single them out then you're going to have to look hard at everyone that degrades readiness. I don't think the legality of it is there, and I don't think Trump or Mattis is ultimately gojng to win on this issue.

- Doc

[_Jersey Girl]

What you said here.

But. We bend over backwards for all sorts of Soldiers, family members, and everything in between. Addiction. Sickness. Non-combat injuries. Elective surgery. Pregnancy. Family stuff. Mental health. All of it. So, adding a trans person here or there really isn't an overall impact on the military from a big picture perspective.

Really struck a chord with me because when he talked about medical expense, I immediately wondered what would happen if they limited the number of pregnancies that were covered and what kinds of objections that would raise because the expense of covering multiple pregnancies has got to far exceed any service to trans that are now allowable and covered.

I think you and I both know how heavily used the OB/GYN clinics are in terms of multiple pregnancies. Either that or we haven't paid attention. In any case, no matter which way you look at this, the issues are complex. I just watched an Anderson Cooper clip (and I think I saw the chart he's referring to online) where he said that approx. 8.6 million is spent on trans health care, where 56 billion is spent on healthcare to the remainder of the military. Even so, were they including retired in those numbers? It's unclear.

The civilian community doesn't always know precisely how the military functions (Your TDY/unit budget for example) so I'm not entirely sure that we'll get full coverage (yes, I meant that) reporting because who knows how long it will take the media to synthesize all the information they need to accurately report on this.

A secondary complaint...why do we still have MWR facilities when it that service could be accomplished entirely online?

And yet another I mentioned earlier, why in hell do we have commissaries in CONUS? I've never fully understood that.

[_MeDotOrg]

By the way, Donald Trump has already cost the American Taxpayer more money for golfing weekends in Mar a Lago than the healthcare costs for transgender troops.

So someone can tell our President that we could afford these troops if he would get is lard ass off of a golf cart in Mar a Lago, and instead stay in Washington use a tread mill at the White House.

But as we all know, Donald Trump cannot tell the truth as to why he is doing something. The cost reason is BS. The real reason for this is simple: Republicans want a wedge issue to use against democrats in the rust belt. So if Trump has to go back on all the promises he made to the LGBT community, well, screw 'em if they can't take a joke.

[_Jersey Girl]

By the way, Donald Trump has already cost the American Taxpayer more money for golfing weekends in Mar a Lago than the healthcare costs for transgender troops.

So someone can tell our President that we could afford these troops if he would get is lard ass off of a golf cart in Mar a Lago, and instead stay in Washington use a tread mill at the White House.

But as we all know, Donald Trump cannot tell the truth as to why he is doing something. The cost reason is BS. The real reason for this is simple: Republicans want a wedge issue to use against democrats in the rust belt. So if Trump has to go back on all the promises he made to the LGBT community, well, screw 'em if they can't take a joke.

I was going to bring up the golfing trips! I straight up can't stand this guy any more.

Disjointed rant: Between this and him exploiting BSA for political purposes, appointing that non-scientist (whatever his name is I can't keep up with this ever changing chaotic narrative of his to the point of critical mass now) the position on climate change, Paris Accord, what the hell the 'vote that healthcare bill in even if it's a POS', I am fast developing a seething case of contempt for him. What the hell is he doing MAGA rallies for and how much is that crap costing? He's campaigning before the campaign year, trying to keep the adulation and momentum going, the smarmy bastard. He's never really stopped campaigning only now he's doing it on our dime! How about he get his fat ass behind the desk, put his fat Pinocchio nose to the grindstone, and do his freaking job? What has he accomplished or tried to accomplish that hasn't made it's way into the court system? WTF is his deal? I want this man pressured so bad every waking moment of his life until he's found one day drooling in the corner of a closet having developed bleeding ulcers (unless those are fatal in which case I retract that statement because I don't wish death on anyone) and a permanent facial tic, and goes completely bald from the stress.

On second thought, I better exercise some self restraint. Too late.

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

Doc, a thread you might find useful. And worth pointing out that in threads like this people are religious about being respectful and leaving politics out. This is a testament to how despised McCain is, going back to even before his POW days. Then take a stroll over to other threads discussing trans or women in military, see how little regard is given to McCain's opinions on the subject.

http://www.socnet.com/showthread.php?t=130315

The thread you linked is very laudatory toward him, and doesn't address the trans thing at all. ?

Regardless, I'm making the point he's the Chairman of the SASC. He's a Republican. He's a military guy. His opinion stands AFAIC. Even if his opinion was contrary to mine it would still stand due to his incredible influence over military matters.

- Doc

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

I was going to bring up the golfing trips! I straight up can't stand this guy any more.

Disjointed rant: Between this and him exploiting BSA for political purposes, appointing that non-scientist (whatever his name is I can't keep up with this ever changing chaotic narrative of his to the point of critical mass now) the position on climate change, Paris Accord, what the hell the 'vote that healthcare bill in even if it's a POS', I am fast developing a seething case of contempt for him. What the hell is he doing Make America Great Again rallies for and how much is that ____ costing? He's campaigning before the campaign year, trying to keep the adulation and momentum going, the smarmy bastard. He's never really stopped campaigning only now he's doing it on our dime! How about he get his fat ass behind the desk, put his fat Pinocchio nose to the grindstone, and do his freaking job? What has he accomplished or tried to accomplish that hasn't made it's way into the court system? WTF is his deal? I want this man pressured so bad every waking moment of his life until he's found one day drooling in the corner of a closet having developed bleeding ulcers (unless those are fatal in which case I retract that statement because I don't wish death on anyone) and a permanent facial tic, and goes completely bald from the stress.

On second thought, I better exercise some self restraint. Too late.

Mr. Trump is a real world example of the Gish Gallop. I don't think he's doing it on purpose as a tactic, I just think he's a fire hose of nonsense and so much comes out so often that voters don't care any more in the sense Dems will vote against him and Repubs will probably stick with him for whatever reason.

- Doc

[_Xenophon]

Regardless, I'm making the point he's the Chairman of the SASC. He's a Republican. He's a military guy. His opinion stands AFAIC. Even if his opinion was contrary to mine it would still stand due to his incredible influence over military matters.

- Doc

One of the more interesting parts of McCain's comments to me is how stark the difference is to his original opinions on DADT.

From:

In the end, eight Republican senators cast their votes to allow gays and lesbians to serve openly in the U.S. armed forces, repealing the 17-year-old "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" policy.

But Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.) did not join them and used his time on the Senate floor Saturday to stand athwart history yelling stop.

"Today is a very sad day," McCain announced, detailing his continuing opposition to allowing gay and lesbian soldiers to be open about their sexuality.

To:

Any American who meets current medical and readiness standards should be allowed to continue serving.

Shows a man who realizes he reached an incorrect conclusion before and is wanting to be on the correct side of the story, in my opinion.