DiscussMormonism.com

[Moderator Note: please use a color other than red to highlight text]

Nelson and Robinson said they're looking for more lasting results and are in mediation proceedings with Starbucks to implement changes, including the posting in stores of a customer bill of rights; the adoption of new policies regarding customer ejections, racial profiling and racial discrimination; and independent investigations of complaints of profiling or discrimination from customers and employees.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/men-a ... nntp&pfr=1

My question is can you deny use of the bathroom to noncustomers or not? If you ask people to leave your place of business because they are not customers, can the police force them to leave or not?

What exactly will these new policies be? I suppose it will be a secret training where managers are told they can ask white people to leave if they're noncustomers or for any reason but not black people. Can you discriminate against nonpayers? From the way this case looks, apparently you can only discriminate against white nonpayers.

If this were such a big business deal, why not buy a $2 cup of coffee? Why not leave if the police tell you to leave?

I'm a left-leaning type, and I think the black guys were wrong, belligerent, and trying to agitate because the climate in today's society allows for partisans to act like children and get kudos from virtue-signalling backpatting morons. I'm sure they're going to file some sort of civil rights lawsuit in the hopes of getting a lot of free coffee.

- Doc

My question is can you deny use of the bathroom to noncustomers or not? If you ask people to leave your place of business because they are not customers, can the police force them to leave or not?

Yes, you can do both on charges of loitering. Now the but....

But in this case, the actions of the manager and police were clearly discriminatory. Everything I write from this point on is based on reports that I've read. I admit that we only know what has been presented to us.

It is reported that the two men in question were real estate agents awaiting the arrival of a friend or colleague. They arrived at the Starbucks, one asked for the restroom code and was refused. They sat down and waited for the other man to arrive. They were asked if they were ready to order and said "no".

I want to know if there was more to that conversation, did the men explain that they were waiting for their friend/colleague arrive or was it a quick one off conversation?

Within THREE MINUTES the manager summoned 911.

The police arrived. I don't know what happened insofar as exchanges between the two men and police are concerned.

The police cuffed the men and at that point, their friend/colleague arrived. The friend/colleague challenge (on camera) the arrest of the two men.

My understanding is that there were other white customers present also "loitering" on the premises and they weren't challenged. My understanding is that one man was refused the restroom code, while a white customer was given the code without challenge.

The men who were arrested on the premises were not read their rights. They were cuffed and taken away to sit in the police station holding area for hours.

We don't know enough details, but I do think we know enough details to judge that the actions of both the manager and police were discrimatory based on racial profiling.

Breakdown of communication, racial profiling...no doubt in my mind that this was the case. Unless something comes out that changes my mind, that's how I see it.

With regard to sensitivity training. My guess is that Starbucks is doing this to improve guest services. Making staff aware of how they act on their perceptions and how those perceptions can be based on bias.

In my own training and education, I had to examine how my own bias could come into play in judging people based on their race/culture and intentionally learn to recognize that bias and how it manifests itself in my work. A small example, an Asian mother who arrived during lunch to pick up her child who was still eating. She sat down and spoon fed her 4 year old son.

When an American teacher sees this, s/he might assume that the mother is "babying" her child and preventing his personal growth and the development of self help skills. In HER culture, spoon feeding a male child is a sign of respect.

I think it's important that we not only respect differences but engage in education that heightens our awareness of how we meet and approach people in society, and question our own behaviors.

I believe this is what Starbucks is striving to do and I support the company in that effort.

Ajax wrote:My question is can you deny use of the bathroom to noncustomers or not? If you ask people to leave your place of business because they are not customers, can the police force them to leave or not?

The answer to your basic questions is "yes". Yes you can deny use of facilities to non-customers and yes you can have the police force them out (local laws will vary slightly).

A better question would probably be: "Was doing so in this circumstance the correct call?" In the case presented you have two non-threatening individuals making no disturbance at a location that has a reputation for being a place where it is generally okay to loiter that is no where near capacity. If I'm that store's manager I think my grace period granted to the gentlemen waiting is significantly longer before I escalate the situation. In all fairness, I probably would have left when the police showed up had I been the 2 in the story but I'm generally pretty non-confrontational. I can definitely appreciate their outrage over the way they were treated.

Given Starbucks reaction I think it is safe to say that the company doesn't feel like the situation was handled properly:

Starbucks CEO Kevin Johnson released a statement last Saturday night apologizing to the two men on behalf of the company.

"The video shot by customers is very hard to watch and the actions in it are not representative of our Starbucks mission and values," Johnson said in the statement. "Creating an environment that is both safe and welcoming for everyone is paramount for every store. Regretfully, our practices and training led to a bad outcome -- the basis for the call to the Philadelphia police department was wrong. Our store manager never intended for these men to be arrested and this should never have escalated as it did."

ETA: DANG IT Jersey Girl, by one minute!

Xenophon wrote:ETA: DANG IT Jersey Girl, by one minute!

What the heck did I do?

Jersey Girl wrote:

Xenophon wrote:ETA: DANG IT Jersey Girl, by one minute!

What the heck did I do?

Sorry, our point is pretty similar but you beat me to the posting punch. Always the bridesmaid I guess

Xeno honestly I didn't even read your post, I scanned it to the end and saw my name on it. Not that your post isn't all interesting. I'm posting while gearing up to write a condolence message to someone on another website.

I'm basically loitering on the thread.

;-)

This news story tells you the power of social media. Twenty years ago, this story would not have caused the furor that it has. Twenty years ago, you would not have a company-wide response of racial sensitivity training.

I work at Fisherman's Wharf in San Francisco. Most of the people are tourists, but there are a fair amount of homeless people panhandling. Most restaurants have a strict 'customers only' policy. Our company actually pays a restaurant to let our employees use their bathrooms.

Out of curiosity, has anyone ever been to a Starbuck's that didn't have a combination bathroom door?

Why didn't the guys just buy a damn ing cup of coffee?

- Doc

MeDotOrg wrote:Out of curiosity, has anyone ever been to a Starbuck's that didn't have a combination bathroom door?

Yes, I have.

I'm not a Starbucks fan because I don't drink coffee. But, there is a Starbucks on the corner of a little Jersey town that I end up dropping in to during summer visits.

To cool off, to get out of the rain, and to use the restroom.

I can't recall ever ordering anything there. There's no restroom code at all. I've never been approached by staff.

Been to two Starbucks in my area here. Never tried using the restroom so I don't know if it's locked with a code or anything.