Left vs. Right on Science & Honesty

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_Water Dog
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Left vs. Right on Science & Honesty

Post by _Water Dog »

Over on the other thread.

Maksutov wrote:
Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:'____ Asymmetry Principle' states the amount of energy needed to refute ____ is an order of magnitude greater than that needed to produce it. ____ can be propagated quickly, but can be more difficult to disprove.

I.E., now known the Dr. Ford Anomaly.

- Doc
DoubtingThomas wrote:
False accusations are not the only problem in the US. By 2040 climate change is going to significantly impact the US economy. Why not talk about the problems that the Right denies? Radical feminists can be annoying, but the left is still much better than the right.


Hell, the right is still denying evolution and human equality. Don't expect a reasoned response from frightened snowflake men clutching guns and praising their cult icon Trump. :wink: They're too busy being triggered by women who are smarter than they are, Trump gives them a safe space. :lol:


Raises an interesting question. How does the left compare to the right when it comes to science?

Blah blah, evolution, blah blah. Hmm. True, there are some on the right that deny evolution. But, then, there seem to be plenty on the left who deny it as well... like in thinking that a woman is trapped inside a biological male body.

The Dr. Ford Anomaly, as doc puts it, is quite a thing, isn't it? Look at these bizarre comments from people like Mak. He speaks of Ford as though her claims are objectively true. Yet, where is the evidence? Her testimony? He simply believes her. He "feels" her truth, or something. Without even going into all the evidence that contradicts and refutes Ford, we already discussed all this, what is there to support her claims? Nothing. She might as well be claiming to have seen a unicorn. And you believe her, why, because she assumes a certain body language? She emotes in a certain way? #BelieveWomen is a statement of religious faith, which is the basis for every injustice at the height of every moral panic and mass hysteria in history.

Party of Science?

Not to mention what most people of common sense already know.

Whether it is throwing a ‘sickie’ to get time off work or making up an excuse to avoid doing something they do not want to do, the fairer sex is the most dishonest.

But while that may paint an unflattering picture, it is not all bad for women are also more likely to bend the truth so they do not hurt someone’s feelings.


https://www.express.co.uk/life-style/li ... y-day-fibs

Ahhh, don't want to hurt anyone's feelings. Sure, #BelieveWomen

Party of Science, haha.

We could also get into how incredibly sexist this is. Against men, obviously, but against women as well. The party that supposedly fights against sexism is the only one engaging in actual sexist behavior. Mak over here seems incapable of making a comment without injecting his sexism into it. Perhaps he suffers from gender dysforia, I dunno. Something is going on.

Then you've got all the other subjects. We could go down the whole list. Issue after issue after issue, the left is not on the side of truth and facts. It's on the side of feelings. Perceived injustices, class warfare, and various other appeals to emotion with zero regard for objectivity. It's on the side of tribalism and victimhood.

This is a pretty good piece.

My liberal friends sometimes ask me why I don’t devote more of my science journalism to the sins of the Right. It’s fine to expose pseudoscience on the left, they say, but why aren’t you an equal-opportunity debunker? Why not write about conservatives’ threat to science?

My friends don’t like my answer: because there isn’t much to write about. Conservatives just don’t have that much impact on science. I know that sounds strange to Democrats who decry Republican creationists and call themselves the “party of science.” But I’ve done my homework. I’ve read the Left’s indictments, including Chris Mooney’s bestseller, The Republican War on Science. I finished it with the same question about this war that I had at the outset: Where are the casualties?


Causality, wuuut?

Some surveys show that Republicans, particularly libertarians, are more scientifically literate than Democrats, but there’s plenty of ignorance all around.


No surprise there.

The first threat is confirmation bias, the well-documented tendency of people to seek out and accept information that confirms their beliefs and prejudices. In a classic study of peer review, 75 psychologists were asked to referee a paper about the mental health of left-wing student activists. Some referees saw a version of the paper showing that the student activists’ mental health was above normal; others saw different data, showing it to be below normal. Sure enough, the more liberal referees were more likely to recommend publishing the paper favorable to the left-wing activists. When the conclusion went the other way, they quickly found problems with its methodology.


Hmm, where have I seen this before?

The narrative that Republicans are antiscience has been fed by well-publicized studies reporting that conservatives are more close-minded and dogmatic than liberals are. But these conclusions have been based on questions asking people how strongly they cling to traditional morality and religion—dogmas that matter a lot more to conservatives than to liberals. A few other studies—not well-publicized—have shown that liberals can be just as close-minded when their own beliefs, such as their feelings about the environment or Barack Obama, are challenged.


Ya don't say?

The Left’s most rigid taboos involve the biology of race and gender, as the Harvard psychologist Steven Pinker chronicles in The Blank Slate. The book takes its title from Pinker’s term for the dogma that “any differences we see among races, ethnic groups, sexes, and individuals come not from differences in their innate constitution but from differences in their experiences.” The dogma constricts researchers’ perspective—“No biology, please, we’re social scientists”—and discourages debate, in and out of academia.


Sacred cows. It's funny. On Terrestrial there is a thread with a quote from Gina Colvin theorizing that Nelson's obsession with the name change is about controlling the lingo to manipulate tribal allegiance. Huh. Leave it to a lefty to come up with that idea. Half of the lefty playbook is about Approved Speech.

And that brings us to the second great threat from the Left: its long tradition of mixing science and politics. To conservatives, the fundamental problem with the Left is what Friedrich Hayek called the fatal conceit: the delusion that experts are wise enough to redesign society. Conservatives distrust central planners, preferring to rely on traditional institutions that protect individuals’ “natural rights” against the power of the state. Leftists have much more confidence in experts and the state. Engels argued for “scientific socialism,” a redesign of society supposedly based on the scientific method. Communist intellectuals planned to mold the New Soviet Man. Progressives yearned for a society guided by impartial agencies unconstrained by old-fashioned politics and religion. Herbert Croly, founder of the New Republic and a leading light of progressivism, predicted that a “better future would derive from the beneficent activities of expert social engineers who would bring to the service of social ideals all the technical resources which research could discover.”


The new religion.

Whatever, I can't quote the whole piece. Read for yourself. The basic argument being, yeah, there are some science deniers on the right. However, they are actually pretty far and few between, and that kind of thinking has virtually no impact on much of anything. Whereas on the left we have the same lunatics, many of them with letters behind their name, and they have a real impact. From environmental BS, power generation, agriculture, food, vaccines, to the asinine gender debates. Men are evil. Especially white men. Bringing back the Salem Witch Trials. Oh, but republicans believe in god, hissssss! People on the left don't? I have a feeling there are actually more atheists on the right end of the spectrum at this point.

https://www.city-journal.org/html/real- ... 14782.html
_canpakes
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Re: Left vs. Right on Science & Honesty

Post by _canpakes »

_Water Dog
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Re: Left vs. Right on Science & Honesty

Post by _Water Dog »

I'm not sure what to do with this article from 2002 that you've linked. Nor am I sure what it has to do with the OP. A link and run, if there ever was one.
_canpakes
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Re: Left vs. Right on Science & Honesty

Post by _canpakes »

Water Dog wrote:I'm not sure what to do with this article from 2002 that you've linked. Nor am I sure what it has to do with the OP. A link and run, if there ever was one.


Read it. Digest it. Remember it. There will be a quiz later.

By the way, you’ve gotta work on your attention to detail, especially if you’re posting about science literacy. The second article is from this year. : D
_subgenius
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Re: Left vs. Right on Science & Honesty

Post by _subgenius »

Water Dog wrote:
Raises an interesting question. How does the left compare to the right when it comes to science?


Not sure how you are defining "left and right" here, but if you are keeping with the ambiguity of modern day American notions of right and left, then the Right has made waaaay more innovations and and progress in the field of science than has the Left.
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_Themis
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Re: Left vs. Right on Science & Honesty

Post by _Themis »

Water Dog wrote:Blah blah, evolution, blah blah. Hmm. True, there are some on the right that deny evolution.


Some? This poll from years ago suggest most republicans do not believe in evolution while most democrats do.
https://www.ajc.com/news/national/poll-republican-belief-evolution-the-decline/xF8JvlDbc9YA9ZoBbhCLoM/

But, then, there seem to be plenty on the left who deny it as well... like in thinking that a woman is trapped inside a biological male body.


Certainly some democrats have wrong ideas, but you don't really show how they, and how many, are wrong with this very subjective claim.

The party that supposedly fights against sexism is the only one engaging in actual sexist behavior.


More unsupported vague claims. Are you really so biased to think republicans do not engage in sexism a fair amount?

Then you've got all the other subjects. We could go down the whole list. Issue after issue after issue, the left is not on the side of truth and facts. It's on the side of feelings. Perceived injustices, class warfare, and various other appeals to emotion with zero regard for objectivity. It's on the side of tribalism and victimhood.


Sure both sides can believe stupid things and base then entirely on feelings, but you are just parading right wing talking points without backing anything up.

No surprise there.


No surprise you don't show these surveys.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/293329678_Scientific_literacy_optimism_about_science_and_conservatism

The basic argument being, yeah, there are some science deniers on the right. However, they are actually pretty far and few between, and that kind of thinking has virtually no impact on much of anything.


Unfortunately false as shown above. Climate science denying is one of the more damaging beliefs more republicans hold in large numbers then democrats. Also evolution. Much more then worrying about people who identify their gender differently then how you want them to. I will let the science continue to expand our understanding of these issues.

Whereas on the left we have the same lunatics, many of them with letters behind their name, and they have a real impact. From environmental BS, power generation, agriculture, food, vaccines, to the asinine gender debates.


While there is always a few quacks, nothing here other then vaccines is a problem of the left. I would suggest not assuming a few weird people represent a whole political group and how they think.

Men are evil. Especially white men. Bringing back the Salem Witch Trials.


This is just a small vocal minority. Much less a problem then larger groups of sexiest or racist people.
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_Themis
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Re: Left vs. Right on Science & Honesty

Post by _Themis »

subgenius wrote:Not sure how you are defining "left and right" here, but if you are keeping with the ambiguity of modern day American notions of right and left, then the Right has made waaaay more innovations and and progress in the field of science than has the Left.


Considering that most scientists identify as democrat it's hard to see how this would be true.
https://slate.com/technology/2010/12/most-scientists-in-this-country-are-democrats-that-s-a-problem.html
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_Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: Left vs. Right on Science & Honesty

Post by _Doctor CamNC4Me »

Themis wrote:
subgenius wrote:Not sure how you are defining "left and right" here, but if you are keeping with the ambiguity of modern day American notions of right and left, then the Right has made waaaay more innovations and and progress in the field of science than has the Left.


Considering that most scientists identify as democrat it's hard to see how this would be true.
https://slate.com/technology/2010/12/most-scientists-in-this-country-are-democrats-that-s-a-problem.html


I took it to mean he thinks market-based progress, founded in scientific pragmatism to develop a product or innovation, has produced more x-y-z by Conservative or Republican types than Leftists. But, he's of course free to clarify.

- Doc
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.

Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.
_Themis
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Re: Left vs. Right on Science & Honesty

Post by _Themis »

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:I took it to mean he thinks market-based progress, founded in scientific pragmatism to develop a product or innovation, has produced more x-y-z by Conservative or Republican types than Leftists. But, he's of course free to clarify.

- Doc


That may be hard for him to define well enough to back up his vague assertion.
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_Kevin Graham
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Re: Left vs. Right on Science & Honesty

Post by _Kevin Graham »

The Dr. Ford Anomaly, as doc puts it, is quite a thing, isn't it? Look at these bizarre comments from people like Mak. He speaks of Ford as though her claims are objectively true. Yet, where is the evidence? Her testimony? He simply believes her. He "feels" her truth, or something.


OMG your President just went on the air declaring to the entire country that Kavanaugh was "proven innocent" and where was your concern for the scientific method on that?

Instead, you're upset that some people believe her over him based on "feelings" which is something no one ever said so we're really just entertaining another one of your idiotic straw man arguments. People believe her because she comes across as credible (just ask your President who agreed). She has no reason to lie. There is a ton of evidence to corroborate her story. And the guy she is accusing has already been caught lying several times while throwing tantrums like a petulant child. These things tend to matter to rational adults. You're unaware of these things because you keep your head firmly in your own ass with the daily reading of Federalist, Townhall, dailycaller, etc.

Your party is the party of anti-science. Yes. You deny climate change and cling to fringe scientists and declare it a stalemate. You deny biological science that debunks a number of popular anti-abortion arguments, your party for the most part does reject evolution, your ignorance of that fact notwithstanding. According to Gallup (Newport, 2012) 58% of Republicans think God created humans in their present form within the last 10,000 years. You don't get any more damned anti-science than that.

Your party rejects all academic studies on issues that affect this country such as Gun Control and you are always trying to mock academic institutions as a whole because they offend your anti-science worldview. It doesn't matter how many times it is pointed out that you're statistically more likely to die by firearm if you keep a gun in your home, there are always the "don't tread on me" rednecks out there who say Guns make them "feel" safe. And yes, the fact that the Right tends to be hyper religious makes you far more irrational and anti-science. No religious person on the Left is a fanatic who takes the Bible literally. They understand biological science and grant that homosexuality is something beyond a "choice." You use the Bible and a few out of context citations written by God knows who thousands of years ago to justify your hatred and bigotry towards homosexuals.

The flat earthers aren't typical of the Right but they tend to be on the Right. Also, a buddy of mine who is trying to get a job with Infowars insists that we never landed on the moon. Everything is a big hoax. These idiots don't know how to determine what's true because learning how to think critically is something you typically learn with an appreciate for actual science.

There are some on the extreme left who can be labeled anti-science on issues like GMOs and Anti-Vaxers, but nothing that comes close to what we see on the Right as a party.

And let's not forget economics, which Right Wingers interpret to mean nothing more than if its good and the President is Democrat, the President has nothing to do with it, and if the President is Republican, the President has everything to do with it. If the economy is bad, just go back to the last Democrat and there is the blame. That's a Conservative's understanding of economics in a nutshell. Trump gave us the post-truth era. Truth, facts, science, none of it really matters. All that matters are the goosebumps the racists and bigots get while attending his constant rallies.

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