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In honor of today's Brexit plan vote failure, here is Andy Serkis as Theresa May as Gollum:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6sGH_v1mDEE

I can't claim to be particular well informed regarding the nuance of the Brexit debate in GB. But it seemed to me that May was in an incredibly tough situation when it came to the EU having almost no reason to give GB concessions beyond the Ireland/North Ireland custom zone or cutting GB off completely. And the latter is seen as a step backwards into conflict between England and Ireland that is not really Brussel’s concern.

From my overly simplistic perspective, the Brits voted for a naïve swift, clean break from the EU that turned out to be an illusionary promise (sound familiar?) Today’s vote is a reflection of what happens when a vote is democratically put to the people based on flawed information, bad judgment and outright lies, who in turn demand their representative government somehow make that absolute demand reality despite the premises of the original vote being a pipe dream.

Truth is, I feel kinda bad for May if not a fan of her politics. What does government do when reality is too complicated for public consumption but pure democracy is demanded? other than fail?

honorentheos wrote:the Brits voted for a naïve swift, clean break from the EU that turned out to be an illusionary promise (sound familiar?) Today’s vote is a reflection of what happens when a vote is democratically put to the people based on flawed information, bad judgment and outright lies, who in turn demand their representative government somehow make that absolute demand reality despite the premises of the original vote being a pipe dream.

Nicely put.

Chap wrote:

honorentheos wrote:the Brits voted for a naïve swift, clean break from the EU that turned out to be an illusionary promise (sound familiar?) Today’s vote is a reflection of what happens when a vote is democratically put to the people based on flawed information, bad judgment and outright lies, who in turn demand their representative government somehow make that absolute demand reality despite the premises of the original vote being a pipe dream.

Nicely put.

Agree. Trump liked the populist idea of Brexit from day one. That fact alone should have been a bright red light for the good citizens of the UK.

honorentheos wrote:…(snip)...Today’s vote is a reflection of what happens when a vote is democratically put to the people based on flawed information, bad judgment and outright lies, who in turn demand their representative government somehow make that absolute demand reality despite the premises of the original vote being a pipe dream.

More accurately its a vote that represents how the losers can wage a multi-year campaign to overturn the will of the people through constant rhetoric, allegation, presupposition, and the predatory act of injecting fear and regret on a decision that was made earnestly and honestly.

But yeah, hold your lies up as the better lies.

subgenius wrote:

honorentheos wrote:…(snip)...Today’s vote is a reflection of what happens when a vote is democratically put to the people based on flawed information, bad judgment and outright lies, who in turn demand their representative government somehow make that absolute demand reality despite the premises of the original vote being a pipe dream.

More accurately its a vote that represents how the losers can wage a multi-year campaign to overturn the will of the people through constant rhetoric, allegation, presupposition, and the predatory act of injecting fear and regret on a decision that was made earnestly and honestly.

But yeah, hold your lies up as the better lies.

I see why you think Trump is also a great negotiator. You don't understand how things actually work. Someone wants to just walk away from a 40 year relationship, keep all the benefits of that relationship, all while ignoring that the other party actually needs nothing from them to force them to make concessions in the break up? Piece of cake. 51% of the people willed it so let is be so.

subgenius wrote:

honorentheos wrote:…(snip)...Today’s vote is a reflection of what happens when a vote is democratically put to the people based on flawed information, bad judgment and outright lies, who in turn demand their representative government somehow make that absolute demand reality despite the premises of the original vote being a pipe dream.

More accurately its a vote that represents how the losers can wage a multi-year campaign to overturn the will of the people through constant rhetoric, allegation, presupposition, and the predatory act of injecting fear and regret on a decision that was made earnestly and honestly.

But yeah, hold your lies up as the better lies.

I think you need to look at the composition of the 432 MPs who voted against Mrs May's deal, as opposed to the 202 who voted for it.

They included such groups as the 'European Research Group' of Conservative MPs who believe that the UK should simply cease to be a member of the European Union on 29th March without any deal whatsoever, as well as Conservative members of parliament who would like to have a negotiated exit from the European Union, but simply think that Mrs May's deal places too many constraints on the UK. Such MPs cherish the hope that the EU will be willing to negotiate further on the points they find problematic, although the EU have made it clear that the deal is not open to renegotiation. Then there were the Democratic Unionists who favor leaving the EU, but who cannot accept the so-called 'Irish Backstop' in the deal, which is designed to ensure that whatever is agreed in any future trade deal between the EU and the UK, there will be no hard border between Northern Ireland (part of the UK) and the Irish Republic.

The vote was by no means a simple opposition between those who wanted to remain in the EU, and those who wanted to leave. And the result of the vote certainly did not mean that the UK will not be leaving the EU - though a vote for the deal would've course have eliminated that possibility.

TL/DR: subgenius does not really understand what took place on Tuesday evening in the House of Commons.

subgenius wrote:...its a vote that represents how the losers can wage a multi-year campaign to overturn the will of the people through constant rhetoric, allegation, presupposition, and the predatory act of injecting fear and regret on a decision that was made earnestly and honestly.

Even earnest and honest decisions can be wrong. Like the decision made as to the Titanic's route to New York. Should a course correction have been made to avoid the iceberg collision?

moksha wrote:

subgenius wrote:...its a vote that represents how the losers can wage a multi-year campaign to overturn the will of the people through constant rhetoric, allegation, presupposition, and the predatory act of injecting fear and regret on a decision that was made earnestly and honestly.

Even earnest and honest decisions can be wrong. Like the decision made as to the Titanic's route to New York. Should a course correction have been made to avoid the iceberg collision?

And a decision can be made earnestly and honestly by somebody (A) who has taken at their word a person (B) who has misinformed them, since person (B) is not earnest, or not honest, or even neither. In some cases people who grossly misled voters before the referendum vote in 2016 have since done a complete reversal of their positions. Here's a good example out of a number that an organisation is putting up on billboard in the UK

Led by Donkeys

For your information, Mr Grayling is a minister in Mrs May's government, and campaigned enthusiastically for a vote to leave the European Union.

THEN:

‘There will be a free trade agreement that allows all our businesses to trade freely to and from continental Europe... It will take a relatively short period of time.’

- Chris Grayling in February 2016


NOW:

‘These are going to be lengthy negotiations, they're going to be challenging negotiations… Nobody has ever said the negotiation would be straightforward and simple.’

- Chris Grayling, October 2017