DiscussMormonism.com

Let's quit beating around the bush: The only way to end these mass shootings is to rid the country of guns.

But how does the country go about confiscating the guns from the people who don't want to give them up?

MeDotOrg wrote:Mike Huckabee said today that the problem was Americans haven't been thinking and praying enough about this issue.

I don’t mean to sound harsh, but simply put, Mike Huckabee is an idiot if he thinks that’s the answer.

Dr. Shades wrote:Let's quit beating around the bush: The only way to end these mass shootings is to rid the country of guns.

But how does the country go about confiscating the guns from the people who don't want to give them up?

You don't. It's just attrition once a ban goes into effect. Old guns are collected and destroyed, say, when a crime is committed and you find one at a residence. No new sales unless you're a hunter or sportsman. Shooting ranges are fine, but guns are tightly regulated akin to having and using a car. I think that's the best we can do.

- Doc

Markk wrote:As a Christian, for me it is a sin problem, which translates to a corrupted nature. ...

OK, I'll join you there, just to have a discussion. Let's just assume that there is an hereditary corruption in human nature, and let's call it 'sin'. I don't believe in that any more myself, but since I was a Christian for a considerable part of my life, I understand very well what you are talking about, and I know the vocabulary.

Markk wrote:...where does accountability and justice fit into this.

Some comments on that:

1. When a bad thing happens, then there may be a considerable number of people who have sinfully contributed to it happening. Thus, for instance, in the small town where Jane is addicted to opioids, with the result that her children are neglected, one might say that Jane sinned by failing to make enough effort to avoid becoming addicted in the first place, or in continuing to take opioids once she is aware of the consequences of her addiction. But the doctor who happily issues script after script for her to continue her addiction is likewise a sinner. So too, we might say, is the pharmacist who makes money by selling her what he knows to be an excessive amount of medication.

2. I have noticed that US evangelical Christians - and US politicians who pretend to be evangelical Christians in order to attract their votes, tend to have an rather limited view of how responsibility should be attributed. Thus, they tend to think that an individual is the only suitable destination for responsibility, since only an individual can sin. However in Biblical terms this is clearly not the case: God is frequently represented as accusing a whole nation or city of sin, as for instance in Ezekiel 22:

23 And the word of the Lord came unto me, saying,

24 Son of man, say unto her, Thou art the land that is not cleansed, nor rained upon in the day of indignation.

25 There is a conspiracy of her prophets in the midst thereof, like a roaring lion ravening the prey; they have devoured souls; they have taken the treasure and precious things; they have made her many widows in the midst thereof.

26 Her priests have violated my law, and have profaned mine holy things: they have put no difference between the holy and profane, neither have they shewed difference between the unclean and the clean, and have hid their eyes from my sabbaths, and I am profaned among them.

27 Her princes in the midst thereof are like wolves ravening the prey, to shed blood, and to destroy souls, to get dishonest gain.

28 And her prophets have daubed them with untempered morter, seeing vanity, and divining lies unto them, saying, Thus saith the Lord God, when the Lord hath not spoken.

29 The people of the land have used oppression, and exercised robbery, and have vexed the poor and needy: yea, they have oppressed the stranger wrongfully.

30 And I sought for a man among them, that should make up the hedge, and stand in the gap before me for the land, that I should not destroy it: but I found none.

31 Therefore have I poured out mine indignation upon them; I have consumed them with the fire of my wrath: their own way have I recompensed upon their heads, saith the Lord God.

In the case of opioids, it would be easy to image Ezekiel denouncing the socio-economic system that allowed medicines to be treated as a purely profit-making commodity, and the companies who deliberately set out to exploit this situation to the full, by pumping quantitates of opioids into communities out of all proportion to therapeutic need. Well might he say 'Thou art the land that is not cleansed'.

Turning to the question of mass shootings, and applying the same full gamut of Biblical responsibility, the following have certainly sinned:

1. The shooter himself, who decided to kill innocent people.

2. The gun merchant who was willing to make a living by selling powerful weapons capable of killing many people very quickly to people of whose morality and mental stability he knew little or nothing. (No, the God of the Bible does not let such people off because they did not break the law in making the sale.)

3. Each person who knew or suspected what the shooter had in mind, and took no steps to stop them.

But as we have seen, it is not just individuals who fall under God's judgement. What might Ezekiel have said of a corporation whose shareholders derive huge profits from making and selling to civilians weapons specifically designed for mass killing on the battlefield, knowing how they can be and have been used to slay the innocent in large numbers?

27 Her princes in the midst thereof are like wolves ravening the prey, to shed blood, and to destroy souls, to get dishonest gain.

And what about a country that permits this to happen? What might Ezekiel say? Contrary to the apparent beliefs of some, God did not write the US constitution, nor did he write its second amendment. He operates above all that.

</Biblical stuff>

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:

Markk wrote:but in that context I certainly agree that it is a human nature problem.

I'm glad we found common ground. What is a solution we could immediately employ that would radically reduce the numbers we saw in table I-3, of the CDC report I posted? As a reminder, nearly 40,000 Americans lost their lives to firearms last year with about 42,000 injured.

Markk wrote:However not all, in fact, very few, go around killing other humans, either one at a time, or in mass, in the context of our discussion.

That's true. The current US population is ~330,000,000. 1% is 3,300,000. .1% is 330,000. .01% is 33,000. We 'only' lose a bit over 1/100th of our population every year to firearms. Are you ok with that, and if not, how have you engaged your elected representatives to effectuate change that falls within your ideological narrative?

Markk wrote:Where does good, evil, right, and wrong play into this in finding the root? Also where does accountability and justice fit into this.

We already agreed the root cause is human nature. All of what you just listed is found within our nature. We found the root, Markk. It's human nature. Period.

How do we set about ensuring that we don't allow our natures to result in 40,000 killed and 40,000+ injured per year by firearms? That's the issue. What is a pragmatic and commons sense solution that is cheaper and more 'implementable' than what we're paying now by doing next to nothing?

As far as accountability goes, it's found at the end of that barrel, Markk. That's the consequence. And whoever is pulling that trigger, if they're found and if it's not a suicide attempt, they're typically ushered into our judicial system. That's accountability.

Please take a moment to address either one of my underlined questions, if you don't mind.

- Doc

The first would be not much, if you think we can immediately take the nations guns away I believe you are mistaken. There are laws and the constitution that need to be lawyered out.

Your question is leading and would be like me asking what is something we can do immediately about drunk driving, with having banning all forms of alcohol as my agenda.

We could have police officers do stop and search in high crime areas immediately with one order from a mayor...that would be a major gain in cities like Detroit, Chicago, and Baltimore... and again this could me immediately law.

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:

Markk wrote:but in that context I certainly agree that it is a human nature problem.

I'm glad we found common ground. What is a solution we could immediately employ that would radically reduce the numbers we saw in table I-3, of the CDC report I posted? As a reminder, nearly 40,000 Americans lost their lives to firearms last year with about 42,000 injured.

Markk wrote:However not all, in fact, very few, go around killing other humans, either one at a time, or in mass, in the context of our discussion.

That's true. The current US population is ~330,000,000. 1% is 3,300,000. .1% is 330,000. .01% is 33,000. We 'only' lose a bit over 1/100th of our population every year to firearms. Are you ok with that, and if not, how have you engaged your elected representatives to effectuate change that falls within your ideological narrative?

Markk wrote:Where does good, evil, right, and wrong play into this in finding the root? Also where does accountability and justice fit into this.

We already agreed the root cause is human nature. All of what you just listed is found within our nature. We found the root, Markk. It's human nature. Period.

How do we set about ensuring that we don't allow our natures to result in 40,000 killed and 40,000+ injured per year by firearms? That's the issue. What is a pragmatic and commons sense solution that is cheaper and more 'implementable' than what we're paying now by doing next to nothing?

As far as accountability goes, it's found at the end of that barrel, Markk. That's the consequence. And whoever is pulling that trigger, if they're found and if it's not a suicide attempt, they're typically ushered into our judicial system. That's accountability.

Please take a moment to address either one of my underlined questions, if you don't mind.

- Doc

Response to 2nd underlined question...

That is a matter of opinion, and the context of the debate. Common sense would tell me that if you take away guns and rights of the honest, it will leave the dishonest with a “hands up” so to speak.

You seem to think that our nation will just give up our guns, that’s just not going to happen. And the token arguments about military style assault weapon is a joke in that a cheap 9mm semi auto pistol is as effective in a crowd as a military assault rife. Your correct and honest in your opinion, that if your going to ban guns ban them all...but if you think it is pragmatic and immediate I disagree. It would be easier to ban alcohol or greasy foods...which might kill more folks by far than guns.

Do you believe all guns should be taken away from all people...including law enforcement, and security? This question is in context with Human Nature being the root cause? Should the elite, those that can afford armed protection be able to have such protection?

Thanks
MG

Chap wrote:

Markk wrote:As a Christian, for me it is a sin problem, which translates to a corrupted nature. ...

OK, I'll join you there, just to have a discussion. Let's just assume that there is an hereditary corruption in human nature, and let's call it 'sin'. I don't believe in that any more myself, but since I was a Christian for a considerable part of my life, I understand very well what you are talking about, and I know the vocabulary.

Markk wrote:...where does accountability and justice fit into this.

Some comments on that:

1. When a bad thing happens, then there may be a considerable number of people who have sinfully contributed to it happening. Thus, for instance, in the small town where Jane is addicted to opioids, with the result that her children are neglected, one might say that Jane sinned by failing to make enough effort to avoid becoming addicted in the first place, or in continuing to take opioids once she is aware of the consequences of her addiction. But the doctor who happily issues script after script for her to continue her addiction is likewise a sinner. So too, we might say, is the pharmacist who makes money by selling her what he knows to be an excessive amount of medication.

2. I have noticed that US evangelical Christians - and US politicians who pretend to be evangelical Christians in order to attract their votes, tend to have an rather limited view of how responsibility should be attributed. Thus, they tend to think that an individual is the only suitable destination for responsibility, since only an individual can sin. However in Biblical terms this is clearly not the case: God is frequently represented as accusing a whole nation or city of sin, as for instance in Ezekiel 22:

23 And the word of the Lord came unto me, saying,

24 Son of man, say unto her, Thou art the land that is not cleansed, nor rained upon in the day of indignation.

25 There is a conspiracy of her prophets in the midst thereof, like a roaring lion ravening the prey; they have devoured souls; they have taken the treasure and precious things; they have made her many widows in the midst thereof.

26 Her priests have violated my law, and have profaned mine holy things: they have put no difference between the holy and profane, neither have they shewed difference between the unclean and the clean, and have hid their eyes from my sabbaths, and I am profaned among them.

27 Her princes in the midst thereof are like wolves ravening the prey, to shed blood, and to destroy souls, to get dishonest gain.

28 And her prophets have daubed them with untempered morter, seeing vanity, and divining lies unto them, saying, Thus saith the Lord God, when the Lord hath not spoken.

29 The people of the land have used oppression, and exercised robbery, and have vexed the poor and needy: yea, they have oppressed the stranger wrongfully.

30 And I sought for a man among them, that should make up the hedge, and stand in the gap before me for the land, that I should not destroy it: but I found none.

31 Therefore have I poured out mine indignation upon them; I have consumed them with the fire of my wrath: their own way have I recompensed upon their heads, saith the Lord God.

In the case of opioids, it would be easy to image Ezekiel denouncing the socio-economic system that allowed medicines to be treated as a purely profit-making commodity, and the companies who deliberately set out to exploit this situation to the full, by pumping quantitates of opioids into communities out of all proportion to therapeutic need. Well might he say 'Thou art the land that is not cleansed'.

Turning to the question of mass shootings, and applying the same full gamut of Biblical responsibility, the following have certainly sinned:

1. The shooter himself, who decided to kill innocent people.

2. The gun merchant who was willing to make a living by selling powerful weapons capable of killing many people very quickly to people of whose morality and mental stability he knew little or nothing. (No, the God of the Bible does not let such people off because they did not break the law in making the sale.)

3. Each person who knew or suspected what the shooter had in mind, and took no steps to stop them.

But as we have seen, it is not just individuals who fall under God's judgement. What might Ezekiel have said of a corporation whose shareholders derive huge profits from making and selling to civilians weapons specifically designed for mass killing on the battlefield, knowing how they can be and have been used to slay the innocent in large numbers?

27 Her princes in the midst thereof are like wolves ravening the prey, to shed blood, and to destroy souls, to get dishonest gain.

And what about a country that permits this to happen? What might Ezekiel say? Contrary to the apparent beliefs of some, God did not write the US constitution, nor did he write its second amendment. He operates above all that.

</Biblical stuff>

I don’t have time to read and ponder your post in full, I have to run, I will read it later...but in short, then you disagree that it is not within mans initial nature to do these things... but it is a learned behavior? I want to make sure I understand your position.

Personally I believe we teach good and correct bad behavior...this will get deep but I appreciate your post. One of the first words we learn as a child is “mine”...and as parents we teach and train our children to do good, and to teach them to obey laws...whether from a religious point of view, or a secular, or in my case both. Another variable is morality and what our benchmark is for that.

Thanks

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:It's just attrition once a ban goes into effect. Old guns are collected and destroyed, say, when a crime is committed and you find one at a residence.

That makes sense.

No new sales unless you're a hunter or sportsman.

Plus no assault rifles, rocket launchers, or thermonuclear devices for sportsmen or hunters. Gun dealers need to lose their license if caught pedaling any assault rifles or conversion paraphernalia. Gun manufacturers will need to prove they are not selling assault rifles to gun dealers.

What do you think about deporting NRA officials to Moscow?

Markk wrote:I don’t have time to read and ponder your post in full, I have to run, I will read it later...but in short, then you disagree that it is not within mans initial nature to do these things... but it is a learned behavior? I want to make sure I understand your position.

I don't recognise my position at all in what you write here, nor do I understand how you could derive that from what I wrote. You posted:

Markk wrote:As a Christian, for me it is a sin problem, which translates to a corrupted nature. I purposely stayed away from that in that I am looking for a real conversation, and I know mine is not a popular view here...but in that context I certainly agree that it is a human nature problem.

However not all, in fact, very few, go around killing other humans, either one at a time, or in mass, in the context of our discussion.

If it is just a human nature problem, how do other humans help others that go beyond the norm of how most people behave within the context of our nature?

Where does good, evil, right, and wrong play into this in finding the root? Also where does accountability and justice fit into this.

Thanks

Since your post was avowedly from a Christian perspective, and you concluded by asking "where does accountability and justice fit into this[?]", I decided to examine the classic Bible-based account of the "sin problem" as if I believed in it, and thus to try to answer your question about "accountability and Justice."

In particular, I tried to show that a view of accountability that stops with the individual who pulls the trigger (as we are so often told it does) is a very unbiblical view, and that both corporate and state entities cannot avoid being condemned harshly for setting up and in some cases hugely profiting from the situation in which a hate-filled individual in the US can easily acquire a military assault weapon.

I've long stopped believing in Christianity. But I thought you might find it helpful to be met on your own ground for a change.

moksha wrote:...
What do you think about deporting NRA officials to Moscow?

This seems fair since you are proposing that we import Kremlin officials here, in irder ti expedite your confiscation schemes.