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Donald Trump just isn't a good person

Posted: Wed Oct 16, 2019 12:17 pm
by _Icarus
I remember reading this article several years ago and thinking to myself, if the American people would understand this then there is no way they would elect a man of such poor character. I don't know if he was elected because Americans were ignorant of his character, or if they just didn't care. Either way I think this tells us a lot about the kind of person who is now leader of the free world. A man who doesn't honor agreements. A man who believes it is fine to screw people over so long as he can get away with it legally. This explains why he has been black balled in the finance industry, where no American bank will loan him money and contractors willing to risk doing work without getting paid are becoming scarce as his practice of screwing the little guy becomes more known.

Why U.S. Law Makes It Easy for Donald Trump To Stiff Contractors

One of the more startling moments in Monday night’s presidential debate was the one where Donald Trump appeared to admit that one of his business secrets is an unsavory one: He stiffs his contractors.

That Trump frequently follows such a practice has long been alleged in the press, with Trump issuing muddled responses—half denial, half admission. But what many Americans may not realize is that the prospect of a businessman systematically reneging on his promises as a negotiating strategy—known as “selling out one’s goodwill”—is a recognized danger of the way our contract law works. Fortunately, it’s one that few business people actually exploit, for several reasons.

The allegation that Trump is one of those businessmen who frequently refuses to fully pay his contractors was raised in a Wall Street Journal feature story last June, entitled “Donald Trump’s Business Plan Left a Trail of Unpaid Bills,” and was then revisited in subsequent pieces by such media outlets as Fox News, Reuters, NBC News, and New York Magazine.

At the debate, Clinton confronted Trump in these terms: “I’ve met a lot of the people who were stiffed by you and your businesses, Donald. I’ve met dishwashers, painters, architects, glass installers, marble installers, drapery installers, like my dad was, who you refused to pay when they finished the work that you asked them to do. We have an architect in the audience who designed one of your clubhouses at one of your golf courses. It’s a beautiful facility. It immediately was put to use.”

Trump first offered a half-hearted, pro forma defense: “Maybe he didn’t do a good job and I was unsatisfied with his work.”

That response was similar to one he’d given the Wall Street Journal last June. “ ‘I love to hold back and negotiate when people don’t do good work,’” he told the paper. “ ‘If they do a good job, I won’t cut them at all. . . . It’s probably 1,000 to one where I pay.’”

But at the debate he went on to make another point. “First of all, they did get paid a lot,” he said. “But I take advantage of the laws of the nation because I’m running a company. My obligation right now is to do well for myself, my family, my employees, for my companies. And that’s what I do.”

As he sees it, then, his first loyalty is to himself and his people, and not to the poor suckers on the other side of his contracts. It’s just business, not personal, as Mario Puzo might have put it.

What Trump’s talking about, and what he evidently sees as simply another example of his much-needed, hard-nosed business acumen, is actually a phenomenon that is fairly rare in business. It does occur, though, and has a name, and law students learn about it in their first-year contracts class. It’s called “selling out your good will.” My contracts professor, the late Arthur Leff, explained it in roughly the following terms.

In the U.S. we generally require each side in a lawsuit to pay its own attorneys fees. In England, in contrast, the general rule is that the loser pays the winner’s fees.

Each approach has its advantages and disadvantages, but suffice it to say that the American rule does have an unintended consequence in the realm of contracts. The most you can usually get in a contract case is what you were promised under the terms of the contract. (You can’t get punitive damages in a contract case; those are only available in tort cases, like where someone is injured in an accident.) So if one party to a contract—a carpet supplier, say—fully performs his end of a bargain, it actually becomes irrational, as a matter of cold mathematics, for the other party—a hotel owner, say—to pay everything he promised, assuming the hotel owner has no sense of right or wrong.

Here’s the simple math. Suppose a supplier contracts with a hotel owner to provide carpeting for a new hotel for $100,000. The supplier fully performs. The hotel owner refuses to pay. To recover, the supplier has to go to court, and the most he can possibly win is $100,000. But paying his attorneys fees is going to run him $30,000, leaving the supplier with a recovery worth only $70,000 on his $100,000 contract. As a practical matter, the supplier may lose his whole profit margin.

So an unprincipled hotel owner might say to the supplier, “Look, you’re up a creek. I’ll pay you $75,000. Sure, you’re screwed, but that’s better than you can do by going to court, so be reasonable.”

In practice this rarely happens, for two reasons.

First, most business people, despite what some people think, have integrity, a heart, and a conscience.

Second—and, okay, maybe this is the more important factor—most business people have ongoing relationships with their suppliers. So if you screw them, they’ll stop working with you. Moreover, word will get out, and other suppliers won’t work with you either.

There are two situations where the second principle doesn’t operate. The first are one-off contracts, where the parties are never going to deal with each other again. If a hotel owner builds one hotel in Rhode Island, for instance, and contracts with a local carpet supplier there, and then builds another in Abu Dhabi, and contracts with another local carpet supplier there, and then builds another in Las Vegas, and so on, he may be able to get away with serially stiffing local suppliers.

The other situation occurs when a company owner is about to give up his business—due to retirement, sale, or bankruptcy—and the callous owner no longer gives a damn about maintaining his business reputation. In that situation an unprincipled businessman might be willing to screw his contractors for the short-term, one-time gain—“selling out his goodwill.”

Fortunately, you don’t see that too often. That’s because most business people, like most other Americans, are fundamentally decent people. They believe in, and practice, the Golden Rule.

It’s one of those basic lessons that parents want to pass along to their children, as Melania Trump put it movingly in her speech at the Republican convention last July: “Your word is your bond and you do what you say and keep your promise.”


The craziness about all this is that his supporters maintain that he is a champion for the little guy. Any evidence that he's only working for his own self interest is dismissed as fake news.

Re: Donald Trump just isn't a good person

Posted: Wed Oct 16, 2019 1:08 pm
by _Some Schmo
Icarus wrote:The craziness about all this is that his supporters maintain that he is a champion for the little guy. Any evidence that he's only working for his own self interest is dismissed as fake news.

Which is why it is practically impossible not to view Trump supporters as moronic cult members. Only a moron would call someone with several bankruptcies under his belt a successful businessman.

The funny thing, however, is that we didn't really need this information. I don't see how anyone could think he was successful after listening to him talk. I didn't know anything about his business practice before suspecting he was a total fraud back at the height of The Apprentice. I mean, just think about it for two seconds... why would a real successful businessman/billionaire spend time doing a cheesy reality TV show? Seriously.

Some Americans are frighteningly easy to fool.

Re: Donald Trump just isn't a good person

Posted: Wed Oct 16, 2019 2:53 pm
by _Dr. Shades
Perfume on my Mind wrote:I mean, just think about it for two seconds... why would a real successful businessman/billionaire spend time doing a cheesy reality TV show?

In FAIRness, it could be because said billionaire really likes being on camera, and it's a hobby to him or her.

Not that this overturns the points made in the opening post, of course.

Re: Donald Trump just isn't a good person

Posted: Wed Oct 16, 2019 3:22 pm
by _Chap
Dr. Shades wrote:
Perfume on my Mind wrote:I mean, just think about it for two seconds... why would a real successful businessman/billionaire spend time doing a cheesy reality TV show?


In FAIRness, it could be because said billionaire really likes being on camera, and it's a hobby to him or her.

Not that this overturns the points made in the opening post, of course.


So while that is a logical possibility ... we need one or two other billionaires who have done that before we take Trump's choice to spend his supposedly hugely valuable time that way as worth no more than a shoulder-shrug.

And we must say that it all goes to fill out the picture of a hugely narcissistic personality in any case. Further, do you remember the people that said that Trump originally saw his run at the Presidency as unlikely to succeed, but still excellent preparation for launching his own TV channel ...

Re: Donald Trump just isn't a good person

Posted: Wed Oct 16, 2019 3:35 pm
by _Some Schmo
Dr. Shades wrote:
Perfume on my Mind wrote:I mean, just think about it for two seconds... why would a real successful businessman/billionaire spend time doing a cheesy reality TV show?

In FAIRness, it could be because said billionaire really likes being on camera, and it's a hobby to him or her.

OK, but if said billionaire were to do so, wouldn't you think he/she would try to show off/prove their business acumen on a show about business acumen rather than make decisions in what can only be described as a haphazard, capricious way?

Re: Donald Trump just isn't a good person

Posted: Wed Oct 16, 2019 4:06 pm
by _Dr. Shades
Perfume on my Mind wrote:
Dr. Shades wrote:In FAIRness, it could be because said billionaire really likes being on camera, and it's a hobby to him or her.

OK, but if said billionaire were to do so, wouldn't you think he/she would try to show off/prove their business acumen on a show about business acumen rather than make decisions in what can only be described as a haphazard, capricious way?

I suppose, but I've never seen an episode of The Apprentice, so I don't know what he did or didn't show off or the sorts of decisions he made on it.

Re: Donald Trump just isn't a good person

Posted: Wed Oct 16, 2019 5:57 pm
by _Chap
How the Apprentice made Trump - and it was lies about himself and his supposed wealth, right from the start:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2g0EBGDzCLY

Oh yes, and it was advertising for Trump hotels, clubs and casinos all the way ...even the ones that were about to go bankrupt ...

"Trump did not need to be a successful business man in real life, because he played one on TV."

An interesting comparison between Trump as the enemy of inconvenient facts as President - but also as Apprentice host ... when his show (at number 72) was according to him the top-rated programme on the network.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NRjIZwg879s

Re: Donald Trump just isn't a good person

Posted: Wed Oct 16, 2019 6:34 pm
by _subgenius
“ ‘If they do a good job, I won’t cut them at all. . . . It’s probably 1,000 to one where I pay.’”

While you may think this is odd (where you don't pay for bad work), it is quite common in the construction industry...perhaps get educated about concepts like "retention" and how the industry actually functions before you proclaim such condemnations.

My obligation right now is to do well for myself, my family, my employees, for my companies[/color][/b]. And that’s what I do.”
….and not to the poor suckers on the other side of his contracts. It’s just business, not personal, as Mario Puzo might have put it.

Yes, because everyone negotiates their own position via the opposing position...did you actually read your own post? how are you literally claiming a character flaw for someone who has their family and their employees as apriority when negotiating business deals.
Read that again...and move your lips when you do.

What Trump’s talking about, and what he evidently sees as simply another example of his much-needed, hard-nosed business acumen, is actually a phenomenon that is fairly rare in business.

Looking out for the interest of family and employees is "rare" and is a sign of bad character...got it!

In the U.S. we generally require each side in a lawsuit to pay its own attorneys fees. In England, in contrast, the general rule is that the loser pays the winner’s fees.

wow, a completely irrelevant point...or is its merit simply "In England"....oh, and I don't think you know how this works either.

fully performs his end of a bargain,

which is a departure, and relevant clarification, from the above stated difference between "good job" and "not good job".

Here’s the simple math.

See, here is more of your post's ignorance...breach of contract, among other exceptions, allows for liquidated damages, lawyer fees, etc to be awarded in a court judgment...ergo your carpet guy is awarded $130k.

In practice this rarely happens, for two reasons.

because of the law and other stuff that your post ignores.

First, most business people, despite what some people think, have integrity, a heart, and a conscience.

Moreover, word will get out, and other suppliers won’t work with you either.

Unless its Union :lol:

...dismissed as fake news.

which is where we are with your poorly constructed, poorly argued, and mostly fantasia argument about "character"....your anecdotal and whole-cloth scenarios have done nothing more than make you seem foolish for condemning a business man who says he thinks first of his family and his employees.
character indeed.

Re: Donald Trump just isn't a good person

Posted: Wed Oct 16, 2019 6:39 pm
by _Chap
The point is not whether retention of a portion of final payment pending quality evaluation is normal practice. Anybody who does not do that is an idiot.

The point is whether Trump exploits that normal practice by habitually not paying or underpaying any contractor who he thinks is weak or unimportant enough for him to be able to get away with it. It's no justification for such behaviour that you did it to make your family richer.

After all, so did Mr Corleone.

Re: Donald Trump just isn't a good person

Posted: Wed Oct 16, 2019 6:44 pm
by _Doctor Steuss
I thought he only hired the best people?